Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Some councils can be more, um, expressive than others.
If it has arcane references to obscure sci-fi and a dry wit, it probably came from C20.
Richman
Delta TA
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Some councils can be more, um, expressive than others.
If it has arcane references to obscure sci-fi and a dry wit, it probably came from C20.
Richman
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
All airlines finished up also based on AA's revised guidance of not as large capacity additions as previously reported. Sat in the lounge a few days ago as a group of very senior international captains mobbed a CP and basically told him that if the company wants to play hardball, they can forget winning any more awards and they can forget about any pilot engagement to keep the operation going. RA's legacy is tied up in this. If it was Allen, Mullins, or even Bastian,I could see them stepping on their crank out of spite, but Anderson has worked hard to cultivate a legacy. Why blow it all up while walking out the door?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Well, that was a stupid thing to do, as it would make great evidence in litigation trying to get an injunction against ALPA if things turn ugly.
Maybe you're right. It's possible. But I suspect that Anderson views it much differently. If he gives you what you want now, then he's essentially rewarded "bad behavior." He will make it even more difficult for the company in the next few bargaining cycles, as pilots will view it as evidence that they can push around management and get their way. I just don't see Anderson doing that. He's more likely to hold on to the job for a few more years, make you wait those few years for a contract to "teach you a lesson," and then bow out after getting the deal done, having proven himself as the guy who stood up to labor and still ran the strongest airline.
Pilots always think they have a stronger hand than they really do.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
DETROIT GOES HARD.
Very proud of my council and especially you, Bartels and Bell for your leadership against fierce, fierce opposition.
You made the unpopular, difficult choice because you were charged with representing us, not the various power factions in the MEC and for this, your beer money is no good. Ever.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Um, WE? Didn't someone get A320 FO on that last vacancy?
It's a paper bid... I'm still an E190 guy until I opt to go to training.
I think I'll probably stay on the E190 for quite a while. There's no benefit to going to the A320, and I'm happy with the flying. If I go back to the line, then yeah, I'll go to the A320.
I get what you are saying here, Todd, but I don't like the terminology. these are grown professional pilots. voting down a TA in a democratic fashion is not a two year old throwing a temper tantrum. A TA is not a plain vanilla ice cream cone that the pilots refused and cried "give me sprinkles and a cherry!" Its the basis for every aspect of their working life. To suggest that by voting no, you are acting bad is a misnomer to me, and that conversely management sees that same democratic no vote as an action that needs to be disciplined. I understand that management may see and treat it that way, but the wording rubs me wrong. it comes across as a warning, that all first TA's must be accepted or you will be punished.
Now I understand that you have a lot of experience in these matters and know how they tend to go, but if you don't feel the contract is fair, and don't want to work under it, then the correct vote is no. a yes and a no vote both have consequences. not sure if I explained myself clearly here or not.
RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
I haven't read your TA obviously, and I know it's not about pay entirely so could someone explain why the contract is so bad.
I too have been a Union member since 1987 with NATCA and have never seen anywhere near the pay described (according the the Atlanta Journal) or the time off afforded. I won't even go into the flight benefits etc.
I have been a controller at only the highest facilities in my entire career (17+ years most recently at Atlanta TRACON) and would kill for more than 4 days off a month and double my salary.
Since 2008, when our pay was frozen I have seen sequestration (both threatened and actually happened) furloughs and massive retirements with no one to backfill those leaving. Our washout rate exceeds 70% and I haven't seen more than 4 days off a month since 2010, and my schedule is supposed to be 3 days off a week.
So, a) it could be a LOT worse and b) someone explain why the TA is so bad
Thanks
CJ
A80
I too have been a Union member since 1987 with NATCA and have never seen anywhere near the pay described (according the the Atlanta Journal) or the time off afforded. I won't even go into the flight benefits etc.
I have been a controller at only the highest facilities in my entire career (17+ years most recently at Atlanta TRACON) and would kill for more than 4 days off a month and double my salary.
Since 2008, when our pay was frozen I have seen sequestration (both threatened and actually happened) furloughs and massive retirements with no one to backfill those leaving. Our washout rate exceeds 70% and I haven't seen more than 4 days off a month since 2010, and my schedule is supposed to be 3 days off a week.
So, a) it could be a LOT worse and b) someone explain why the TA is so bad
Thanks
CJ
A80
It may blow up in our face and it may be hell.
But we all have legacies to protect and there's a certain price to be paid for going from an airline who Wall Street applauds for a good working relationship with one of their few organized labor work groups to one where war has been declared and it ends up like the work environment leading to the pre- and post-strike environment NWA had.
Sadly, I think our union presumed that they could sell the onerous parts of the TA as "Don't worry, it won't affect YOU only those $300K FOs bidding with line check airman and those guys that call in sick and post pictures on Instagram about their paid Disney 'vacation'"
Then the union left their echo chamber with a paper bag full of poop with "Time Value of Money" written on it in Sharpie and were shocked how quickly we were able to break it down, analyze it and organize ourselves into decentralized units.
We basically need to swiftly clean house because we have an MEC and a "shadow MEC" that actually runs the union. Most of the "shadow MEC" are people that didn't run (or failed to win) for re election that were appointed by various factions that larger do the lobbying trying to sway the agenda.
A lot of stuff has come to light once the synapses of the sleeping beast started to reconnect and it may, at least on a political/union front, get very nasty very quickly.
There is a special meeting on the 21st and depending on what happens afterwards means that it may be WW III and it will be years and years before we are able to finally get a superior contract.
If the factions fight to stay in power, it will be a bloody political battle. If those factions lay down their weapons, not so much.
The good people doing hard work know who one another are. The people that are a little past their "prime" know who it's time to pass the reigns. No one is important enough to wreck the culture of a great airline and the best pilot group in the world.
Any way it goes, the sun rises, the sun sets, the sun rises...
But we all have legacies to protect and there's a certain price to be paid for going from an airline who Wall Street applauds for a good working relationship with one of their few organized labor work groups to one where war has been declared and it ends up like the work environment leading to the pre- and post-strike environment NWA had.
Sadly, I think our union presumed that they could sell the onerous parts of the TA as "Don't worry, it won't affect YOU only those $300K FOs bidding with line check airman and those guys that call in sick and post pictures on Instagram about their paid Disney 'vacation'"
Then the union left their echo chamber with a paper bag full of poop with "Time Value of Money" written on it in Sharpie and were shocked how quickly we were able to break it down, analyze it and organize ourselves into decentralized units.
We basically need to swiftly clean house because we have an MEC and a "shadow MEC" that actually runs the union. Most of the "shadow MEC" are people that didn't run (or failed to win) for re election that were appointed by various factions that larger do the lobbying trying to sway the agenda.
A lot of stuff has come to light once the synapses of the sleeping beast started to reconnect and it may, at least on a political/union front, get very nasty very quickly.
There is a special meeting on the 21st and depending on what happens afterwards means that it may be WW III and it will be years and years before we are able to finally get a superior contract.
If the factions fight to stay in power, it will be a bloody political battle. If those factions lay down their weapons, not so much.
The good people doing hard work know who one another are. The people that are a little past their "prime" know who it's time to pass the reigns. No one is important enough to wreck the culture of a great airline and the best pilot group in the world.
Any way it goes, the sun rises, the sun sets, the sun rises...
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Jeez... this sounds like a tela novella! Good luck guys.
It
It's really hard to throw it into a nutshell and describe it.
I'll put it like this for simplicity. In the 1990's you had a cup of Viennese coffee and an assortment of petit fours.
Then in the 2000's, the coffee was now Folgers instant with a Twinkie because times were tough and we cut back for bankruptcy.
In 2012, the coffee was Starbucks French roast, the snack was a lemon pound cake. Not quite What we had in the 90's but we're headed the right direction and our company is flourishing and stacking billions. And gold ingot fell from the skies in terms of profit sharing checks.
2015, with an even more wildly profitable company, the union brought us lukewarm QuikTrip coffee, a snack size bag of Cheetos (already opened) and a litany of excuses on how they couldn't do any better, but there was 8% more coffee and no more gold ingots. And THEY WILL SCREAM YOU DOWN IF YOU DARE QUESTION the P2Ps hand selected by the "shadow MEC" to sell the concept.
We've been bullied by our own union fiercely over the past few weeks and we stood up.
It's really hard to throw it into a nutshell and describe it.
I'll put it like this for simplicity. In the 1990's you had a cup of Viennese coffee and an assortment of petit fours.
Then in the 2000's, the coffee was now Folgers instant with a Twinkie because times were tough and we cut back for bankruptcy.
In 2012, the coffee was Starbucks French roast, the snack was a lemon pound cake. Not quite What we had in the 90's but we're headed the right direction and our company is flourishing and stacking billions. And gold ingot fell from the skies in terms of profit sharing checks.
2015, with an even more wildly profitable company, the union brought us lukewarm QuikTrip coffee, a snack size bag of Cheetos (already opened) and a litany of excuses on how they couldn't do any better, but there was 8% more coffee and no more gold ingots. And THEY WILL SCREAM YOU DOWN IF YOU DARE QUESTION the P2Ps hand selected by the "shadow MEC" to sell the concept.
We've been bullied by our own union fiercely over the past few weeks and we stood up.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
mwflyer said:
That's why I made a point of putting those words in quotes. They aren't my words. But I have personally heard airline executives use these exact words behind closed doors. Whether pilots want to believe it or not, management does not view you as equals. They view you as moderately skilled labor that is beneath them and must be kept in line. Anything that would make "the help" get "uppity" is unacceptable to them.
Anderson is a very progressive executive, and no doubt the best CEO in the airline business. Maybe he can find a way to a mutually beneficial conclusion. He is a lot smarter than me, so I hope he can. I just find it unlikely.
He'll figure it out.
That's what all those millions of dollars in compensation are for.
What's the price of peace with labor to please Wall Street?
What is the cost of unrest and the crumbling of the image of a company where we all pull on the same side of the rope in a tug O' war against the rest of the industry?
That's what all those millions of dollars in compensation are for.
What's the price of peace with labor to please Wall Street?
What is the cost of unrest and the crumbling of the image of a company where we all pull on the same side of the rope in a tug O' war against the rest of the industry?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Labor tends to overestimate the value of such things. Time will tell.
RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
I get it, and am sorry the Union didn't back you to the fullest. Our Union, I contend is nothing more than a YMCA without the pool.
Thanks for the coffee reference. This is where is spend my one day a week with 3/4th Baileys and coffee contemplating crappy readbacks, malcontents (on both sides) and better life in Baghdad. US pilots (maybe it's only the ATP guys) think they're the only one in the skies around a fairly (busiest in the World) busy approach control.. What's my sequence. Well damn, you're number one!
It could be a hell of a lot worse. Add mandatory 6 day weeks to your TA.
Thanks for the coffee reference. This is where is spend my one day a week with 3/4th Baileys and coffee contemplating crappy readbacks, malcontents (on both sides) and better life in Baghdad. US pilots (maybe it's only the ATP guys) think they're the only one in the skies around a fairly (busiest in the World) busy approach control.. What's my sequence. Well damn, you're number one!
It could be a hell of a lot worse. Add mandatory 6 day weeks to your TA.
The illuminati is alive at Delta?
Nick
Well-Known Member
I hope you're not under the impression that the question of "what's my sequence" is a hopeful way of thinking out loud as "I wanna be number one."
On the ground on the way out, it's just about figuring out when to start the second engine if single engine taxiing.
On approach it's about figuring out if it's worth putting slats out and spoilers and getting down quick, or coasting on down an expecting a long final.
With your experience you probably do know this already but the way you'd phrased it, I thought I'd mention this so that anyone reading your post who didn't know this, doesn't get the wrong impression (such as a new controller).
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
With wings.