Delta off the Runway - LGA

Seggy said:
Ahhhhhh, WHAT???

First, in my experience, while some regionals are great safety cultures, not many were until the Colgan Accident.

Majors/Mainlines (and I've been at two) have fantastic safety cultures and are really open to retraining a variety of incidents. I'm really surprised you would say something like that from where you are at. I thought they had a great safety culture.

Furthermore, just because you have multiple FOM violations doesn't mean you fire the crew. So yes, you are being to harsh.
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IMO, continuing an approach and landing to an airport despite numerous and repeated severe weather warnings is negligence.

Dragging a wingtip on landing due to crosswinds/gusts is a retrainable event.

They are on two different levels.

This place does have a good "safety culture" (keyword for leniency I suppose) but to an extent. Not including negligence.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
No he isn't being too harsh IMO and in a merit based system, it would easily be a fire-able offense.

I like whatever airline Wheelsup is working at. The more we police our own and let dangerous and/or downright negligent pilots be fired, the better off our industry will be.
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
No offense but these two shouldn't be flying passengers.

"The road to hell was paved with good intentions"

All that matters is them making bad choices, and the wrong choices at every single point. Willful disregard for FOM, etc. They should be fired. But as usual, the union will get the company to "retrain" these individuals and get them back on line in no time.
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Actually these pilots, when retrained, will most likely be model employees and will be able to share their experiences with others on property and allow others to learn from them.

Isn't that you want?
 
Seggy said:
Actually these pilots, when retrained, will most likely be model employees and will be able to share their experiences with others on property and allow others to learn from them.

Isn't that you want?
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That's a maybe, not a guarantee. It depends on the seriousness/egregious nature of the mishap. Negligence/willful disregard of procedures is not something I really want to hear as someone else's learning experience. Those procedures exist to prevent exactly what the individual caused.

To be clear, we are not talking about this Delta LGA case. Just wanted to make sure and get it back on topic.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
No offense but these two shouldn't be flying passengers.

"The road to hell was paved with good intentions"

All that matters is them making bad choices, and the wrong choices at every single point. Willful disregard for FOM, etc. They should be fired. But as usual, the union will get the company to "retrain" these individuals and get them back on line in no time.
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You weren't in the room during the debrief, but I was. It wasn't a matter of wilful disregard. They pressed on, thinking that they could "beat the storm." Once they realized they couldn't beat the storm, they felt they were beyond the point of no return, and did what they felt was the best thing. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight we can see that they made the wrong decision, but things aren't so clear in the moment.

We used this example during recurrent, and detailed each clear decision point. They didn't break any FOM policy or procedures until they ignored the wind shear alert, but by then they were at like 1000 feet looking into the face of a big red blob on their radar. So clearly there were some bad decisions, but the captain felt that at the time of the wind shear alert, he made the best decision he could. You know, I'm not sure I would be too keen on going around into a massive roll cloud either. The lesson was truly to not get yourself into that box in the first place, and they crew was able to learn that through both the experience and retraining. It also served as an excellent example for everyone else.
 
Seggy said:
Actually these pilots, when retrained, will most likely be model employees and will be able to share their experiences with others on property and allow others to learn from them.

Isn't that you want?
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I think a lot would depend on their past history. Are they model employees otherwise? Always commute in responsibly, show up on time, etc. or are they always calling in sick last minute, right before show on uncommutable trips over holidays? Argues with scheduling, pushing the limits on everything?

I've done some boneheaded stuff, once one thing went right to the CEO. Called by the CP, never involved the union, nothing happened to me because I didn't intentionally try to screw up. The company was very lenient toward me due to my past history. However they once tried to fire a guy who refused to wear his hat...(obviously that wasn't THE reason, just the way they were trying to hang him).
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You weren't in the room during the debrief, but I was. It wasn't a matter of wilful disregard. They pressed on, thinking that they could "beat the storm." Once they realized they couldn't beat the storm, they felt they were beyond the point of no return, and did what they felt was the best thing. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight we can see that they made the wrong decision, but things aren't so clear in the moment.

We used this example during recurrent, and detailed each clear decision point. They didn't break any FOM policy or procedures until they ignored the wind shear alert, but by then they were at like 1000 feet looking into the face of a big red blob on their radar. So clearly there were some bad decisions, but the captain felt that at the time of the wind shear alert, he made the best decision he could. You know, I'm not sure I would be too keen on going around into a massive roll cloud either. The lesson was truly to not get yourself into that box in the first place, and they crew was able to learn that through both the experience and retraining. It also served as an excellent example for everyone else.
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I'll give the benefit of the doubt here since I wasn't there, but I will say that one would have hoped the fatalities from the AA MD80 at LIT would have prevented this approach from even happening in the first place.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I'll give the benefit of the doubt here since I wasn't there, but I will say that one would have hoped the fatalities from the AA MD80 at LIT would have prevented this approach from even happening in the first place.
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I hear you. But complacency and "get there itis" can easily sneak in. I guarantee the captain had been in a similar situation 1000 times in his career while flying around in the Southeast during summer. Maybe this one was the most severe of those times, and he got bitten because he didn't see how different it was from the other 999 times. But until you've been in the room listening to a guy describe the worst day of his career, it really is hard to know just how understandable situations like this can be. It's a learning experience for the company, as policy can change as a result. And it's also a great example for the pilot group at large.
 
Seggy said:
Actually these pilots, when retrained, will most likely be model employees and will be able to share their experiences with others on property and allow others to learn from them.

Isn't that you want?
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Yup. Do it again or show a poor attitude after the event, show them the door. But most people who screw things up go out of their way not to make the same mistake again.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I hear you. But complacency and "get there itis" can easily sneak in. I guarantee the captain had been in a similar situation 1000 times in his career while flying around in the Southeast during summer. Maybe this one was the most severe of those times, and he got bitten because he didn't see how different it was from the other 999 times. But until you've been in the room listening to a guy describe the worst day of his career, it really is hard to know just how understandable situations like this can be. It's a learning experience for the company, as policy can change as a result. And it's also a great example for the pilot group at large.
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Well said! It's easy to want to hang guys in incidents/accidents just of the bare details you hear, but it's refreshing to hear folks with management experience in safety like @PhilosopherPilot give the analytical viewpoint of an investigation.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Yup. Do it again or show a poor attitude after the event, show them the door. But most people who screw things up go out of their way not to make the same mistake again.
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That is - more or less - how we are here.

You may become a CQ poster child (this is high enough motivation, on its own, for me to work the extra few percent between "average" and "above average"), but you'll get to keep your job. And I guarantee that you'll never do it again, either.
 
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