Delta Connection Academy
- Thread starter fludy12
- Start date
qball194fa
New Member
that's a new one...and i like it!
If i read that right, it's a satellite campus then correct? probably the same type of policies and marketing BS?
At least the way it was when I was there, Sanford was the base... so no, it was not a satellite... All other campuses were satellites
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Nismaxdan - I know Maxie knows why you decided on DCA. . . mind telling the rest of us?
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Ummmm, actually I dont!
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Could of swore in a previous thread that something was said along the lines that you tried to talk him out of it . . . but he still trumped you with his "really good" reason for attending the pit of hell?
Nismaxdan
Well-Known Member
Gee sorry I didn't realize this thread was still going on.
I went to DCA because being owned by Delta is everything. Didn't I say that in the other thread. Heeelloooo keep up please.
The only things I have against DCA is:
1. They are too <insert profanity here> expensive.
2. They do not make learning aviation fun. It is almost as if they go out of their way to make it as non-fun as possible. I understand they are training you for the airlines, but if this is how the airlines are I think I may want to fly DC3 loaded with chickens to Mexico than fly the overly coverted (sp?) CRJ's. If you are looking to enjoy learning aviation, DCA Sanford is not for you. It is the ideal place for someone who just came out of the military. I am not being factitious.
3. Marketing.
Training is top notch, though their 25 year old C152's and C172's are not.
Just last week I let my shaving lapse by two days, being a brotha, shaving everyday can make ones face look and feel like rocky mountain high. My instructor was like <insert my real name here> you really gotta shave. I was like what the <insert profanity here> does my 5 o'clock shadow have to do with flying (remember I am a student pilot). His response was that they will give him sh*t first before they approach me about it.
So in response I said if you have a problem with my beard <insert profanity here> you and to the other high up mother<insert profanity here> that has a problem with it tell him to come see me so I can tell him <insert profanity here> you and kiss my really cute black donkey. So being the donkey orifice that I am, I am yet to shave, though I really need to.
I went to DCA because being owned by Delta is everything. Didn't I say that in the other thread. Heeelloooo keep up please.
The only things I have against DCA is:
1. They are too <insert profanity here> expensive.
2. They do not make learning aviation fun. It is almost as if they go out of their way to make it as non-fun as possible. I understand they are training you for the airlines, but if this is how the airlines are I think I may want to fly DC3 loaded with chickens to Mexico than fly the overly coverted (sp?) CRJ's. If you are looking to enjoy learning aviation, DCA Sanford is not for you. It is the ideal place for someone who just came out of the military. I am not being factitious.
3. Marketing.
Training is top notch, though their 25 year old C152's and C172's are not.
Just last week I let my shaving lapse by two days, being a brotha, shaving everyday can make ones face look and feel like rocky mountain high. My instructor was like <insert my real name here> you really gotta shave. I was like what the <insert profanity here> does my 5 o'clock shadow have to do with flying (remember I am a student pilot). His response was that they will give him sh*t first before they approach me about it.
So in response I said if you have a problem with my beard <insert profanity here> you and to the other high up mother<insert profanity here> that has a problem with it tell him to come see me so I can tell him <insert profanity here> you and kiss my really cute black donkey. So being the donkey orifice that I am, I am yet to shave, though I really need to.
qball194fa
New Member
Close, very close #'s 2& 3 are extremely accurate. The only thing I didn't encounter was training to be top notch. They got too psychotic about minor stuff that really doesn't matter in the whole scheme of flying. Nobody cares what the PSI is in the right tire of a 172! Yet, (at least when I was there) we were expected to rattle that right off. We (being myself, and a couple buddies) asked the Maintenance department about it, they said "heck, we don't know... that's why we got the book - we can look it up!"
I found training to be much closer to "top notch" with the other places I have gone.
Nismaxdan
Well-Known Member
Hey, hey watch it now I will vehemently defend the pit of ... I mean the Sanford Pilot Factory. Don't you know that being owned by Delta means everything? Why isn't sarcasm one of the default choices at the side, it's too much work to click more.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
I find that hard to believe. I tried to take off with a level 4 thunderstorm approaching the airfield from the north. Both my instructor and the check instructor made me taxi back to the ramp and call it a day. I also taxied past a fuel truck and got my azz chewed for violating safety rules.
What were the winds and weather on the METARs and TAF for that time? If winds were out of the DCA ops specs. You were in the right. Obviously the check pilot thought it was safe. He was the actual PIC since it was not an end of course checkride.
He can't give you a no show because you're actually there. If you had a problem you should have took it up to the Group Manager, then to Pete Balesteri or Bill Leech. Bill Leech of course he's gone now, but he backed me up several times.
$1211.00 for a check flight?:rotfl: I was there when you were and I think that is a little inflated. The most I ever paid for a flight was my Inst End of Course and that was about $600 and that was for the flight and the oral. The price of the rental is wet, so fuel is already included.in the price per hour. You might want to check your monthly statement.
So you busted the VOR, keep on trucking and complete the rest of the tasks. That's just less you would have had to do on the retake. If oyu had went and completed everything else, all you would have to have done was a VOR approach. You could have handled the bust without the drama.
Did the stage check instructor make any comments about runway lighting? Their suppossed to say whether you have certain aspects of the approach lighting or runway in sight. If not you go missed at DH. If you had a solid approach, you were fine. Were you at DH when you went missed? If not it was a bust. Remeber you have to trust you instruments.
You have to be ready and set up for the approch before you do the approach. If you weren't ready, ask to be revectored.
You were in the right. Minimum fuel! What B.S. Some of those check instructors and group leaders are so full of it.
I'm in no way taking the schools side of this I'm just reading you post teeling it as I interperated it combined with my two years there. Yeah the school is a business and they're there to make money, but you have to use all the resources available to you. Don't take one instructors word as the final one. I'm sorry you had a horrible time there. There are many of us how had a great time there, albeit expensive time.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
I didn't have to prove anything. I went to Ron's office and I told him I wanted to switch to FLEX. 30 minutes later I was in FLEX. When I wanted to switch to Part 61, again i went into Ron's office and asked to switch to Part 61. Within 15 mins I was a Part 61 student. DCA is like the military. You have to follow the rules, but when someone jerks you around you can take it up the chain. It works. I knew what I was getting into before I handed my money over and of course there are things and event you learn of as you go. You make it what it is. Unlike the military, you're a customer, you can leave at any point if you feel that the schools is not meeting your expectations. Just my $0.02.
qball194fa
New Member
Ok, let me go through this one last time. I appreciate your view. Appearently we have differing opinions, which is fine. But since you did have some questions or contradictions, I will be happy to clear up any misconceptions or misunderstandings, so the folks that could be reading this can be well informed. Please endulge.
What's hard to believe about the question of safety? I listed the hurricane issue. I guess I could have also listed the Fatigue issue (remember the "IM SAFE" checklist?), but I figured that went hand in hand with the scheduling, but I'll be more specific next time. My apologies for the generalizations.
Surface winds were 135 (or so) at 20... it was right on the line - HOWEVER, at 3000 feet, it was from about 180 at 50+kts. That tells me that there is significant liklihood of windshear. I saw no reason to not do what I could to avoid it!
And as far as the Flight Supervisor not being able to give a no-show, that's severly misguided. In fact: from the Operations Manual, page 16-6, Issued 12/01/04... "No Show" ---- "a "no-show charge(s) will be assessed - - When one of the following occurs: If the student fails to show up for any of the scheduled events (this is the one you referred to, however, it continues) If it is determined that a student is "unprepared" for any of the scheduled events listed above by a representative of the Academy (possibly a Flight Supervisor?!). If a student arrives in advance of the scheduled training activity, but fails to be available to begin the training activity "on time"." So, there you have it, there's more than one reason you can be "no-showed" for a specific activity, and it doesn't have to be your CFI that "no-shows" you!
Nah, I didn't bother going up the chain with that one. It's a "pick your battles" type of thing. I simply put it in the bag of reasons I had decided to take the remainder of my 100 grand elsewhere when I left the academy.
As for the price I listed... there's a differance... we are talking about including a no-show fee, as well as yes, fuel was added as a surcharge. Yes, the rental was "wet", but there was still a fuel surcharge! If there wasn't, then the academy owes me roughly 400 bucks because for about 20 hours (or so) of flight time, I was charged for it!
As for the VOR, why should I have continued when the weather conditions weren't appropriate anyway? Are you suggesting I waste my money? Sorry, but I work hard for my money, and I'm not going to bust 2 or 3 other things throughout the time fighting windshear!
As for the "runway lighting" - no. The checkpilot remained silent. As for the approach. It was solid - or so I thought. It was crosshairs. However, what is wrong when you are over the middle marker on the ILS 09L, your altimeter is still at 400 feet, DH is 255, and when you have shot the approach, you know that at the MM, you are ALWAYS (for that approach in the 172s) within a couple feet of DH? Is your altimeter setting wrong? Is that instrument malfunctioning? Is the Glideslope malfunctioning? Was the sensitivity on the Beacons too sensitive? Do you want to wander around at 200 feet (or so) AGL while you figure it out? If so, remind me never to sit in an airplane with you! Get up, Get out of there. Show good judgement, and get altitude, contact tower, execute a missed approach, and relisten to ATIS, and troubleshoot. It's always better to get out of a bad situation than bum around close to the ground, in a relitively congested area, and troubleshoot it - especially when flying on instruments! As for being ready... I was ready. The approach itself was executed nearly perfectly. I wasn't a dot off in any direction - until I ANNOUNCED going missed because something wasn't adding up. It wasn't anything about a lack of preparedness. I was fully prepared, the approach was accurately briefed, everything was tuned in, and configured very well. It had to do with judgement. Because I showed enough sense and judgement to get out of a bad situation rather than push it, I was busted. I *KNOW* it is always better (unless fuel is an issue) to go missed, establish in a hold or get revectored, and troubleshoot what is in error rather than following a possible faulty glideslope or a sticking altimeter into the ground.
I just want to let people know of my experiances, and I thank you for asking for more details - as long as I don't drop names, I will be happy to provide the details. I don't deem it appropriate to post the names of individuals that were encountered negitively. I want to just stick to the facts of what happened, and use terms such as "Instructor", "Checkpilot", "Examiner", etc.
qball194fa
New Member
Once again, it appears we ran into different people. I was told that I had to prove a bunch of stuff before they would allow me to step over int FLEX.
I am familiar with the military. Sometimes, DCA could have been like the military, but there is a HUGE differance... in the military, it is your job and duty. You are a paid employee, with numerous other benefits. In the military you have legal obligations that you have to fulfill, and disobeying an order is not a "breech of policy", it is a crime. The military has it's own set of laws, courts, and society. DCA has to understand you are a CUSTOMER. As a result, in the capitalist society in which we live, if you are unhappy, you take your money and leave. That's what I, and (from my understanding from numerous other people) a bunch of others have done. At DCA, yes, you sign a training agreement, but terminating that agreement is not NEAR what it is in the military. DCA is a SCHOOL... it is not the students' employment. It is their place of education. There is little to no benefits - no health insurance, no life insurance, no paycheck simply because you are a Delta Connection Academy student. Disobeying an order at DCA may cost you some money, or a slap on the wrist, but it is not a crime like it is in the military. DCA has policies, not ratified laws. There is no Trial by jury at DCA. DCA has traditions, yes, but it is not a completely seperate society.
I appreciate your opinion, I just wanted to clarify where I see differances - just so that readers that may be browsing by can be well informed as well.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
You had the proper justification to cancel. The reason DCA pushes the students around is because nobody pushes back. Where other Inst students going up during this time?
You showed up for your scheduled event, you were obviously prepared for the event, and were available to begin the event on time. You should have raised the B.S. flag.
They owe you money. The fuel surcharge ran from $2.00 to $5.00 per flight. I watched my statements like a hawk and I kept my receipt and tickets for comparison. Though when I went FLEX and 61 I paid lower rental fees and no fuel surcharges.
Of course that's your perogative.
You're over anylizing the approach. There's no exact altitude you should be at at the MM. The only thing that matters is the DH or Time. Did you time the approach as a back up incase the glideslope were to fail. The time from SEMCO to MAP at 90 kts at 3 degree GS is 3:16. I do think you were unfairly busted, but that's our opion. Though the check instructor is watchin you and the gauges abd I'm sure he doesn't have a death wish, so I think you were safe and could have finished the approach.
Nismaxdan
Well-Known Member
Way to go Brian, Stick up for Sanford Pilot Factory
I must say it's not as bad as they were making it out to be. Like my instructor told me just treat it like a job. Though he should have said treat it like a military job.
Is it expensive flip yeah! Anything else is how you apply yourself. Again I will say IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.
I must say it's not as bad as they were making it out to be. Like my instructor told me just treat it like a job. Though he should have said treat it like a military job.Is it expensive flip yeah! Anything else is how you apply yourself. Again I will say IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.
qball194fa
New Member
Way to go Brian, Stick up for Sanford Pilot Factory
That's what I tried to do - treat it like a job. Big differance... a job, the employee is paid, at DCA, the student pays.
qball194fa
New Member
It is my understanding that DCA has made a shift toward more customer service orientation the past year and a half (or so - give or take a couple months) since I was there. That institution had the potential to be a really great school - for everybody who wanted to learn to fly. It was disheartening to see that just because they could be a "big bad bully", they did it. I do hope my understanding is accurate that now the student comes first. That is a HUGE leap ahead!
As for the other INST students? I honestly cannot recall any INST students there at that moment. I do remember a lot of Private and Commercial students (even a couple CFI candidates) canceling. I'm sure there was Instrument guys there, but I don't recall what they were doing.
I'd love it if they would pay me the money they owe me then, but something tells me I won't get it, so I'm not banking on it. I took that situation as a hard lesson learned, and continued on from that. I feel for those who spent so much more than I did, and really got themselves in a corner.
As for the approach, analyzing is something I can do now that I'm on the ground, and not flying an ILS. You have obviously shot the ILS approach a number of times, so you are familiar with the fact that by the time you are at the MM, you don't have a lot of time to decide to continue the approach or to go missed. The issue came to be a judgement issue. I opted to do exactly what I would do in the real world... to throw in the throttle, go missed, and figure it out with altitude and time on my side. I was even told by my group manager that had it been in the real world - I did the right thing, but not on a checkride. That's where a flag did fly. I was quick to point out (and correct me if you feel I'm wrong, but I will defend my position) that a checkride's purpose is to insure that you are indeed safe, skilled, knowledgeable, and competant enough to make sound judgement, and proficient flight in the real world. Unfortuneately, that fell upon deaf ears.
Oh well, I just inform on my experiances that I encountered now. As for now, I'm better off in my opinion than I was while at DCA. I cut my loan in less than half, continued my flight training elsewhere, and saved a bundle in the process... Oh yeah... and FLYING IS FUN AGAIN! (that is not something I could say while at DCA)
supra1998tt
New Member
Well I went there this past year from feb-sep of 06 and like most i have nothing positive to say about that place. like mentioned before it sucked the fun out of aviation completely. All I would do was think is 80k going to be enough for me to fininish? I had the same prob with the flight sup for my ifr cross country even my instructor had to argue with the sup and all the sup said was theres just green and little yellow on the radar you can go. Finally I said i wasnt going to go I could care less what he said and he no showed me like he said he would the next day I went to coustemer service argued with them got that no show taken away wasn't easy though. How ever I did meet some great instructors who actually cared about the students. I felt sad for the intructors because I could not understand how an adult with a family could possibly live on $10 an hour. When I disenrollled at the school I was suppose to get my apartment deposit back when I asked them for it they said they keep it if I disenrolled early saying that I had signed an agreement so I asked for a copy of that agreement and they couldnt show me nothing because I never signed anything stating that and they still keept $150 of the 600 for "cleaning the apartment"
Nismaxdan
Well-Known Member
Way to go Brian, Stick up for Sanford Pilot Factory
Is it expensive flip yeah! Anything else is how you apply yourself. Again I will say IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.
Sorry I forgot to add the
tag.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
At least you got wise and packed up shop. You moved on to another school and got your certs and ratings. All that matters is that your happy with your decision and having fun flying.
qball194fa
New Member
I really am happy with the decision. I now have the excitement in flying again. It is something I really enjoy and I love talking about it, and sharing the joys of flight with others.At least you got wise and packed up shop. You moved on to another school and got your certs and ratings. All that matters is that your happy with your decision and having fun flying.
That was sad at DCA ~ When I found out that I needed out was when I actually felt SICK because I didn't want to fly. It was so bad that I actually was not looking forward to the flights, and I actually said to my wife "Dang it, I have another flight tomorrow!" That was when I knew I needed out. Never before, or since have I felt that way. I thought it was sad, so I got out.
Those that find it is what they want, I really tip my hat. I wanted to enjoy learning about flight, talking about aviation, learning something new, and taking an airplane for a flight. At DCA it was more of a disappointment in that aspect to me.
Supra: It is sad to hear that this is still going on. I know there are a lot of good instructors (like the gentleman that finally got me through Instrument). I have seen DCA's website state that he has moved on to the airlines now, and I hope he is happy. I'm betting he is. I hope over time that place really cleans up it's act. I've heard it's getting better - which is a HUGE positive! It will take time, because there was a LOT wrong with it. I never understood how the instructors made it on 10/hr... maybe if you lived in southern MO or something (no offense to anyone living there, but let's face it, the cost of living is much lower there than many other places). Living in Central Florida, on $10.00 per hour... I wish I knew how that was done... especially if you only had 2 students (which was common - at least when I was there)... You'd be lucky for 4 hours per day, or roughly $200.00 per week... when rent alone will run around $600.00 (at least) per month... that doesn't leave much to actually LIVE on. Does any DCA CFI's - past or present care to chime in on how that task is actually accomplished?
Thanks!