Delta and ASA

Tough news for the ASA pilot group. ASA was a great company to work for with an absolutely fantastic training department

On a positive note, the opportunities available right now industry wide are unprecedented and those opportunities will continue to grow. Everybody has different circumstances so definitely no one fits all solution for the next chess move to make. Best of luck to all affected.
 
roundout said:
A lateral move is always a gamble. How many times have users of this website posted "don't chase a quick upgrade?" Telling people whose airline is dying they should have gone to another regional is incredibly arrogant.
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Before I respond to your statement, let me say this:

What's happening at XJT is terrible. I was furloughed from the ERJ side of XJT from 2008 to late 2010, and I know how painful it is to watch something like this happen when you've got a front row seat. I hope everyone that loses out in this deal is able to find a new and better job soon.

But with that being said, Skywest outright said they were going to shrink the ERJ side of XJT in their 2013 10K filing to the SEC.

http://inc.skywest.com/assets/Uploads/AnnualReports/10k-2013.pdf

Page 32.

Then on page 74, you'll see that Skywest stated the last ERJ contract only lasted until 2020.

It was clear in early 2014 that XJT was in trouble.

The numbers today are accelerated from what was originally anticipated in the 2013 annual report, but the writing has been on a very public wall for years now for the ERJ side.

That the ERJ side is the survivor is what's most surprising, not that XJT is shrinking into a shell of its former self.

To compound this, if you look at the 2014 10K filings and beyond, you can see that Skywest intended to park the entire ERJ fleet by no later than 2018. You can see this on page 26 on the 2015 10K.

http://inc.skywest.com/assets/Uploads/AnnualReports/SkyWestInc2015AnnualReport.pdf

ExpressJet was a wonderful place to work, but ExpressJet has had its end date printed in public for years. To say that someone couldn't see it coming is to say that they couldn't read, which I sincerely doubt. Maybe you could argue that the pilots who are left didn't know where to look for this information, but there are enough people who have been discussing this for years that it'd be hard to miss.
 
jtrain609 said:
Before I respond to your statement, let me say this:

What's happening at XJT is terrible. I was furloughed from the ERJ side of XJT from 2008 to late 2010, and I know how painful it is to watch something like this happen when you've got a front row seat. I hope everyone that loses out in this deal is able to find a new and better job soon.

But with that being said, Skywest outright said they were going to shrink the ERJ side of XJT in their 2013 10K filing to the SEC.

http://inc.skywest.com/assets/Uploads/AnnualReports/10k-2013.pdf

Page 32.

Then on page 74, you'll see that Skywest stated the last ERJ contract only lasted until 2020.

It was clear in early 2014 that XJT was in trouble.

The numbers today are accelerated from what was originally anticipated in the 2013 annual report, but the writing has been on a very public wall for years now for the ERJ side.

That the ERJ side is the survivor is what's most surprising, not that XJT is shrinking into a shell of its former self.

To compound this, if you look at the 2014 10K filings and beyond, you can see that Skywest intended to park the entire ERJ fleet by no later than 2018. You can see this on page 26 on the 2015 10K.

http://inc.skywest.com/assets/Uploads/AnnualReports/SkyWestInc2015AnnualReport.pdf

ExpressJet was a wonderful place to work, but ExpressJet has had its end date printed in public for years. To say that someone couldn't see it coming is to say that they couldn't read, which I sincerely doubt. Maybe you could argue that the pilots who are left didn't know where to look for this information, but there are enough people who have been discussing this for years that it'd be hard to miss.
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Eh, what do you know, amateur?!:D;)
 
jtrain609 said:
Before I respond to your statement, let me say this:

What's happening at XJT is terrible. I was furloughed from the ERJ side of XJT from 2008 to late 2010, and I know how painful it is to watch something like this happen when you've got a front row seat. I hope everyone that loses out in this deal is able to find a new and better job soon.

But with that being said, Skywest outright said they were going to shrink the ERJ side of XJT in their 2013 10K filing to the SEC.

http://inc.skywest.com/assets/Uploads/AnnualReports/10k-2013.pdf

Page 32.

Then on page 74, you'll see that Skywest stated the last ERJ contract only lasted until 2020.

It was clear in early 2014 that XJT was in trouble.

The numbers today are accelerated from what was originally anticipated in the 2013 annual report, but the writing has been on a very public wall for years now for the ERJ side.

That the ERJ side is the survivor is what's most surprising, not that XJT is shrinking into a shell of its former self.

To compound this, if you look at the 2014 10K filings and beyond, you can see that Skywest intended to park the entire ERJ fleet by no later than 2018. You can see this on page 26 on the 2015 10K.

http://inc.skywest.com/assets/Uploads/AnnualReports/SkyWestInc2015AnnualReport.pdf

ExpressJet was a wonderful place to work, but ExpressJet has had its end date printed in public for years. To say that someone couldn't see it coming is to say that they couldn't read, which I sincerely doubt. Maybe you could argue that the pilots who are left didn't know where to look for this information, but there are enough people who have been discussing this for years that it'd be hard to miss.
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Still, what is one to do? Today's quick upgrade du jour could be tomorrow's stagnant, backwards-going group. Envoy proved that the opposite can be true, as well. If one had left XJT for another regional, it may or may not have worked out. Obviously, a better move would be a legacy or a LCC/ULCC, but despite all the woes of carriers of those tiers, it's still difficult to get hired at one.

Conversely, given what you posted, it's hard to feel as bad for people who buried their head in the sand and didn't fix their logbooks and start applying elsewhere. Opportunity favors the prepared mind, and all that jazz.
 
roundout said:
Still, what is one to do? Today's quick upgrade du jour could be tomorrow's stagnant, backwards-going group. Envoy proved that the opposite can be true, as well. If one had left XJT for another regional, it may or may not have worked out. Obviously, a better move would be a legacy or a LCC/ULCC, but despite all the woes of carriers of those tiers, it's still difficult to get hired at one.

Conversely, given what you posted, it's hard to feel as bad for people who buried their head in the sand and didn't fix their logbooks and start applying elsewhere. Opportunity favors the prepared mind, and all that jazz.
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I had a job as a street captain at PSA because they were going to get all of Eagle's CRJs. They ended up jerking me around so I didn't take it. They ended up not getting all of those planes so last I checked with someone who was in the same class I was going to be in, I'd still be on reserve in DAY and I would have been in training there when my interview at Air Beachball came around.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I had a job as a street captain at PSA because they were going to get all of Eagle's CRJs. They ended up jerking me around so I didn't take it. They ended up not getting all of those planes so last I checked with someone who was in the same class I was going to be in, I'd still be on reserve in DAY and I would have been in training there when my interview at Air Beachball came around.
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I vaguely remember talking about that whenever we did CVG. I'd say you dodged a bullet.
 
roundout said:
Still, what is one to do? Today's quick upgrade du jour could be tomorrow's stagnant, backwards-going group. Envoy proved that the opposite can be true, as well. If one had left XJT for another regional, it may or may not have worked out. Obviously, a better move would be a legacy or a LCC/ULCC, but despite all the woes of carriers of those tiers, it's still difficult to get hired at one.

Conversely, given what you posted, it's hard to feel as bad for people who buried their head in the sand and didn't fix their logbooks and start applying elsewhere. Opportunity favors the prepared mind, and all that jazz.
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What do you do? You learn how to do math.

I'm not advocating anybody go to Compass, but when I showed up they still had 300 pilots left to flow on a list of 600. Given that they were already leaving, and there was a time line for that flow to finish, it was clear that I'd upgrade inside 18 months.

That's with nobody else leaving to go to a different carrier.

There have been options, but many have chosen to stay. I get that it's not easy, but the choice was made clear; leave now, or be forced out later.
 
jtrain609 said:
What do you do? You learn how to do math
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The 1000 pilots who quit Envoy between 2013 and 2016 (disclaimer - some flowed to AA, but many were attrition) did math and saw that the airline was shrinking, with management giving away over 100 airframes and telling the group it was going to be Comair II. Now upgrade is 3 months. You just never know.
 
Cptnchia said:
A cautionary tale. After Comair, and now this, it behooves one to do whatever possible to have the name on the side of the airplane match the name on the paycheck.
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That quote has been repeated thousands of times for the last 2 decades. Anyone who didn't follow that advice has no one to blame but themselves.
 
roundout said:
The 1000 pilots who quit Envoy between 2013 and 2016 (disclaimer - some flowed to AA, but many were attrition) did math and saw that the airline was shrinking, with management giving away over 100 airframes and telling the group it was going to be Comair II. Now upgrade is 3 months. You just never know.
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You never know, but you can make an educated decision.

You don't just sit there and hope it turns out ok.
 
Airlines treat their regionals like crap, but Delta moreso than others. For the past ~20 years, Northwest had just two (Pinnacle and Mesaba). Continental had Continental Express (and very very small operators as Continental Connection). American had just American Eagle (plus American Connection operated by TSA). Point being, most other legacies relied on one or two large regional carriers. Delta did, but the Comair strike of 2001 taught them a tough lesson and since then they've operated multiple regional airlines and shifted contracts and planes from one carrier to another. Sadly, after the big mergers the other legacy airlines adopted the same strategy. The original American Eagle became Envoy, and the Eagle name then got painted all across other regionals.

ASA is done at Delta. Endeavor has found breathing room, but anyone who takes Delta seriously when they say Endeavor is the gold standard, should look at past regional airline history with Delta.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Airlines treat their regionals like crap, but Delta moreso than others. For the past ~20 years, Northwest had just two (Pinnacle and Mesaba). Continental had Continental Express (and very very small operators as Continental Connection). American had just American Eagle (plus American Connection operated by TSA). Point being, most other legacies relied on one or two large regional carriers. Delta did, but the Comair strike of 2001 taught them a tough lesson and since then they've operated multiple regional airlines and shifted contracts and planes from one carrier to another. Sadly, after the big mergers the other legacy airlines adopted the same strategy. The original American Eagle became Envoy, and the Eagle name then got painted all across other regionals.

ASA is done at Delta. Endeavor has found breathing room, but anyone who takes Delta seriously when they say Endeavor is the gold standard, should look at past regional airline history with Delta.
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Even before the strike, Delta had 4 regionals.
ASA
Business Express
Comair
Skywest

Each one operated out of its respective hub and only sometimes crossed paths at an outstation. After the strike, they started to dilute the flying, so they would never be held hostage again, and that started the whipsaw.
 
BlueMoon said:
You never know, but you can make an educated decision.

You don't just sit there and hope it turns out ok.
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Absolutely. Anyone who didn't at least start getting their logbooks together and getting their suit tailored, well ....no bueno.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I had a job as a street captain at PSA because they were going to get all of Eagle's CRJs. They ended up jerking me around so I didn't take it. They ended up not getting all of those planes so last I checked with someone who was in the same class I was going to be in, I'd still be on reserve in DAY and I would have been in training there when my interview at Air Beachball came around.
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Interesting. Everyone I know that left ASA for PSA has upgraded. Some are even now Line Check Airman.
 
Trip7 said:
Interesting. Everyone I know that left ASA for PSA has upgraded. Some are even now Line Check Airman.
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This is true. But I know many of those who came to PSA as DECs regret their decision. And the company may be looking at DECs again soon apparently because we have so many eligible FOs bypassing upgrade. I don't know that they will find as many that are willing this time around.
 
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