Great news! There are people that do know how much margin is needed including if an engine fails or decompression and they calculate that fuel need based on performance not feelings.
Delta 121 control issue
- Thread starter Wardogg
- Start date
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
(It's a virtual airline document but it's accurate)
Extended-range Twin-engine Operations
wiki.ivao.aero
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
(It's a virtual airline document but it's accurate)
Extended-range Twin-engine Operations
Nerd.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
It's the first thing that popped up in Google. I haven't flown anything that didn't burn Jet A or wasn't a Level D sim in 15 years!
What is your connection to aviation?
Life-long aviation fan. Dreamed of being a pilot since I was a kid. I was born with some degree of color blindness which made life choices difficult because I didn't want to be anything other than a pilot. At some point in high school, I developed an interest in designing airplanes. I decided to go a university where I could enroll in an aerospace engineering program.
The dream to fly never went away. I couldn't pass the regular Ishihara plates and failed the Farnsworth Lantern at an air force base. In 2002, I found an aviation medical examiner with a Keystone. I applied for a 3rd class certificate. Much to my surprise, I passed it with flying colors! I was ecstatic. Reality was I was a poor college kid, dependent on my parents, enrolled in a demanding engineering program, and had no chance of paying for lessons. I made the "mistake" (aviation examiner's words) of disclosing my ADHD and Tourette Syndrome on the airman medical application. I was doing well without medication. Of course, he had to defer. The FAA wanted a litany of neuropsychological tests that I couldn't afford. That was the end of that.
After 2 years, I also figured out engineering wasn't for me. Advanced math and I don't get along, and while designing planes was something that really interested me, that passion faded when I realized engineering school was making me miserable.
I completed the 2nd semester of my junior year and left. I pondered pursuing my other 2 loves: biology and geology. I chose the former. I did well in bio courses. Was pre-med. Made some poor life choices and got a crazy chick knocked up. I dropped out of school and drove a truck over the road for a while to support us. I'm telling you all this because it leads back to an aviation. The dream to fly never left. In 2007, I left the road and went back to finish my biology degree. During that time, I had a good job with excellent benefits that covered neuropsychological testing.
In 2008, I traveled to Memphis because their optometry school has a Keystone test. I got what I needed from them and went again to again to an AME, of course deferred the medical and awaited instructions from the FAA for the further testing. I followed their instructions to a T. I got the testing and submitted it all to the FAA, along with a request for a letter (can't remember the proper term) that would allow me to never have to take a color vision test again since I passed the keystone test. When I submitted this request, the FAA was still issuing this special letter to airmen. The neoropsych testing review took months. By the time they issued my medical certificate, the FAA had changed the rules and was no longer issuing a permanent letter for passing an alternate color vision test. I would have to pass the Keystone every 6 months if I wanted an aviation career. I fought it because I applied for the special issuance letter before they changed the rules. I argued it should be retroactive to the date I applied. FAA wouldn't budge,, basing it on the date they issued the airmen certificate. That was a huge letdown. Who knew if the Keystone would be available in the future? Could I based on entire career on being able to find a Keystone every 6 months for decades? Now that the FAA only allows approved computerized color testing and the keystone can no longer be used, who knows if I'd have passed that.
Unfortunately, I was born with some degree of color blindness. Talk about a dream being shattered. I could have obtained my private license with a restriction on of not flying at night, but I couldn't justify taking on debt at the time if I couldn't progress to a career as a commercial pilot. It's all moot. By the time I graduated with a BS in Biology in 2009, I had developed peripheral neuropathy which required management with medications banned by the FAA. I realized I would likely never be about to fly due to medical issues.
I went to nursing school and never looked back with regard to flying. BS in Nursing in 2011. Nursing has been good to me. It's been rewarding and given me a lot of career flexibility, which helps with raising a family. Finished my Masters in Nursing in 2019 and became a psychiatric nurse practitioner. Very successful career. I'm damn good at what I do. It's fnancially rewarding.
I'm home every night at normal hours, and I work from home. There's a lot to be said for that. It matters when you have kids - to see them every day. I make own hours. No one tells me when to work. I work as little or as much as I want. As I'm divorced and the primary parent for my younger child, I wouldn't the freedom my job gives me for anything. I'm home with him after school every day he's with me. How many working father's can say that? I take him to all his doctor and therapy appointments and don't worry about having to get permission or use PTO to be off. I'm going to his Vday pary at school tomorrow. Oh yeah, I never work on Fridays. I would not have had the freedom has an airline pilot to be so involved in my kids' lives. I'd have more money and a bigger house, but those things in the end aren't important. Being a parent is the most important thing I will do with my life. I don't have to worry about losing a medical due to health problems. As long as my brain is sound, I can do psych until I'm old if I want.
Yes, that's so great there's people that know what they are doing! Thank goodness! I freely admit that I don't know what l don't know. I'm here to learn. I ask some questions about what someone thinks happened hear and no one has addressed them. Someone asked me how much margin I thought would be ok. I pulled a number out of my ass that sounded good and no one actually addressed my answer, only ripped me apart. I guess none of you wanted a real discussion.
This plane landed with 20 minutes of fuel on board. So I'm asking what happened that lead to being so close to fuel starvation. What went wrong? How did this happen? No one has answered that.
Would declaring earlier have given them more options or gotten them on the ground quicker. If they realized they were lower on fuel than expected when approaching Europe, why not land in Ireland to refuel? No one has answered that. Why? Educate me.
I feel this place is becoming like APC or Reddit. Instead of educating me and building me up I'm torn down, you want to poke holes in what I say and make fun of me. Not cool.
derg
I know about ETOPS. I didn't know you could prepare for a scenario where emergency decompression leading to a lower with increased field consumption. Good to know.(It's a virtual airline document but it's accurate)
Extended-range Twin-engine Operations
Oops, was trying to do @derg
Ok first of all I didn't make fun of you but you are welcome to think that. When you come in "guns blazing" making accusations of being unsafe and backing those accusations up with "feelings" it doesn't seem like you want to learn.
The facts are there are safety margins in place to account for enough fuel for most of the what ifs and it seems to be working, we don't have planes falling out of the sky routinely because they didn't have enough fuel.
When we get a flight release from our dispatcher, the fuel is broken down by how much is required based on planned weight and winds plus additional fuel for legality plus any extras for broken equipment or reliability portection( rather hold than divert to protect the operation). After all that the pilots look at it and determine if they agree with the safety margins and either sign or have a discussion about adding fuel. I'd say 1 out of every 15-20 legs, I'll add fuel. Fuel leaks and feelings really don't come into play, experience does. Maybe we're going into EWR and it's been a mess there recently and in my experience we'll burn into our reserves more than expected. Maybe the flight plan is planned for an altitude I can't guarantee we'll get to due to congestion or turbulence. There's airports like SLC that really doesn't present alot of good options for diversions so if the weather is borderline I may ask for more fuel or an alternate to be added. I've never been denied adding fuel, it's a discussion between two professionals but I've never faced a dispatcher that was like no you got enough.
Hope that helps.
Rosstafari
Likes tacos
May as well hijack the thread.
This was an issue during my C172 engine failure / ditching. Told the controller what was happening and where I’d be, and he came back with the questions - as he was legally obligated to do - while the clock ticked below 30 seconds and I’m trying to set up for a swim.
In the aftermath, I ASAPed a long recommendation on how the 7110.65 and SOPs need to be changed to not elicit unnecessary questions during time critical situations. It was kicked back to me, since an accident had happened. I’ve yet to follow up to the right party.
But its been on my mind frequently since then, and your story plus a few years in the 121 world kind of confirms it for me. Emergencies aren’t being handled right in time sensitive situations and ATC can actually add to pilot workload.
Having seen things on both sides of the mic, what ATC really needs, in order:
1. What you need them to do
2. How many bodies are they looking for and how far out should they look if you disappear (SOB / fuel)
3. Is there anything they can provide from their end (fire, rescue, medical, relay, whatever)
And ALL of that should be relayed by the pilot, not requested by ATC. I’d go as far as stopping all transmissions under, say, 2000 AGL. Just picking a number.
I think it’s time I start following up again. Anybody have any feedback for me as I get the ball rolling? Or want to participate?
This was an issue during my C172 engine failure / ditching. Told the controller what was happening and where I’d be, and he came back with the questions - as he was legally obligated to do - while the clock ticked below 30 seconds and I’m trying to set up for a swim.
In the aftermath, I ASAPed a long recommendation on how the 7110.65 and SOPs need to be changed to not elicit unnecessary questions during time critical situations. It was kicked back to me, since an accident had happened. I’ve yet to follow up to the right party.
But its been on my mind frequently since then, and your story plus a few years in the 121 world kind of confirms it for me. Emergencies aren’t being handled right in time sensitive situations and ATC can actually add to pilot workload.
Having seen things on both sides of the mic, what ATC really needs, in order:
1. What you need them to do
2. How many bodies are they looking for and how far out should they look if you disappear (SOB / fuel)
3. Is there anything they can provide from their end (fire, rescue, medical, relay, whatever)
And ALL of that should be relayed by the pilot, not requested by ATC. I’d go as far as stopping all transmissions under, say, 2000 AGL. Just picking a number.
I think it’s time I start following up again. Anybody have any feedback for me as I get the ball rolling? Or want to participate?
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
I think a big problem there is just controller ignorance on everything a pilot is doing during that situation. There are far too many controllers who have absolutely 0 idea of what’s happening in a cockpit, and it’s noticeable in far more than just emergency situations.
roundout
VNAV monitor
Something I remind myself (And the Guys and gals I sit next to) is that many of the people who "touch" the operation are new. Below the wing, dispatch, pilots, controllers. Many decades of experience were lost in the wake of COVID.
It's up to us now to prepare the next generation, whether part of a specific job description or not. An excellent avenue for that is this forum, even if informally.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
It’s an issue even with veteran controllers. Just a side effect of something like 90+% of controllers having never been in a cockpit before.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
Even having a controller observe a sim session would be cool. They could see what's happening during emergencies.
YES!
I think if we expanded the “Ride Along” program and had more pilots visiting ARTCC and towers would be fantastic for safety and the operation.
Granted, I’ve only had one in-flight emergency that I can remember and ORD was absolutely fantastic. Discrete single-frequency, super calm, “when you’re ready, I need souls on board and fuel” instead of shotgunning it off like you hear on some of the LiveATC/VASAviation recordings.
Pilots are eager to please the voice over the radio because we often assume we’re talking directly with the FAA so when they ask us for things, or to do something, the assumption at times is “it MUST be prudent, otherwise they wouldn’t ask me to do it, right? RIGHT?!”
. An example is when there was a heavy jet that slapped the tail off a CRJ, that there were some conflicting instructions about where they wanted to put the aircraft and the crew found themselves in an unfamiliar situation WHILE working out an abnormal onboard. At the end of the day, the lesson, from both sides, is “We have to stop HERE, we’ll be back with you in a moment”. There are some other causal factors of course, but I gotta go to Lowes.
YES!
I think if we expanded the “Ride Along” program and had more pilots visiting ARTCC and towers would be fantastic for safety and the operation.
Granted, I’ve only had one in-flight emergency that I can remember and ORD was absolutely fantastic. Discrete single-frequency, super calm, “when you’re ready, I need souls on board and fuel” instead of shotgunning it off like you hear on some of the LiveATC/VASAviation recordings.
Pilots are eager to please the voice over the radio because we often assume we’re talking directly with the FAA so when they ask us for things, or to do something, the assumption at times is “it MUST be prudent, otherwise they wouldn’t ask me to do it, right? RIGHT?!”
An example is when there was a heavy jet that slapped the tail off a CRJ, that there were some conflicting instructions about where they wanted to put the aircraft and the crew found themselves in an unfamiliar situation WHILE working out an abnormal onboard. At the end of the day, the lesson, from both sides, is “We have to stop HERE, we’ll be back with you in a moment”. There are some other causal factors of course, but I gotta go to Lowes.
Go visit RYN tower.