Dealing with death in aviation
- Thread starter BrettInLJ
- Start date
alphaone
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that's what he did.
[/ QUOTE ] Im sorry please let me rephrase. jaxpilot, I didn't hear about this, this is an incredible story can you please share? And sorry if you already did maybe you or someone could direct me where it is?
Thanks, wes
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that's what he did.
[/ QUOTE ] Im sorry please let me rephrase. jaxpilot, I didn't hear about this, this is an incredible story can you please share? And sorry if you already did maybe you or someone could direct me where it is?
Thanks, wes
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
So we can all learn from this, I'm posting the NTSB preliminary report. Remember to keep above best glide, and keep coordinated when your engine loses power. Its better to find the best spot you can, and fly it all the way into the crash rather than banking and pulling up to far while trying to make a runway. An engine out situation should never escalate into a stall/spin. I was a proponent before, but now more so that students should be taught spin recovery in flight before being allowed to solo (though I assume the CFI had done this training before).
This is eerie, because the description of the engine sounds is exactly similar to what happend in my partial power loss out of SNA. I don't judge the flight school as a whole by this as it seemed like a small, but safety oriented operation. The chief pilot had a great no-BS attitude and emphasized standardized, structured training and safe practices when I talked to him on Saturday. The instructor seemed like a great guy too... very sad.
"On September 11, 2005, about 1545 Pacific daylight time, a Cessna 152, N6565L, collided with terrain at Lakewood, California. Aviation West Flight School was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The certified flight instructor (CFI) and the student pilot sustained fatal injuries; the airplane was destroyed. The local instructional flight departed Daugherty Field, Long Beach, California, and had been airborne about 1 minute. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The approximate global positioning system (GPS) coordinates of the primary wreckage were 33 degrees 49.79 minutes north latitude and 118 degrees 976 minutes west longitude.
According to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the airplane departed runway 25 right at Daugherty Field. About 30 seconds later, the pilot reported poor climb performance, and requested to return to the airport.
Numerous witnesses observed the airplane. They reported that it was low, and appeared to be going slow. The engine maintained the same sound; it was not coughing, sputtering, or backfiring. It sounded like it was at a low rpm (revolutions per minute). They reported that the nose was up, the wings were rocking, and the tail was moving back and forth. The right wing then dropped about 90 degrees, and the nose went nearly straight down.
The airplane came to rest behind a building. The right wing was under a truck, and the truck's front left wheel was on top of the right horizontal stabilizer. The right side of the fuselage and the vertical stabilizer rested against the truck's front bumper. Fire consumed most of the cabin area."
As far as the sputtering engine, I wonder if it could have been water in the tanks or maybe the mixture was calibrated to rich in the engine (the suspected cause of my engine problem).
This is eerie, because the description of the engine sounds is exactly similar to what happend in my partial power loss out of SNA. I don't judge the flight school as a whole by this as it seemed like a small, but safety oriented operation. The chief pilot had a great no-BS attitude and emphasized standardized, structured training and safe practices when I talked to him on Saturday. The instructor seemed like a great guy too... very sad.
"On September 11, 2005, about 1545 Pacific daylight time, a Cessna 152, N6565L, collided with terrain at Lakewood, California. Aviation West Flight School was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The certified flight instructor (CFI) and the student pilot sustained fatal injuries; the airplane was destroyed. The local instructional flight departed Daugherty Field, Long Beach, California, and had been airborne about 1 minute. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The approximate global positioning system (GPS) coordinates of the primary wreckage were 33 degrees 49.79 minutes north latitude and 118 degrees 976 minutes west longitude.
According to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the airplane departed runway 25 right at Daugherty Field. About 30 seconds later, the pilot reported poor climb performance, and requested to return to the airport.
Numerous witnesses observed the airplane. They reported that it was low, and appeared to be going slow. The engine maintained the same sound; it was not coughing, sputtering, or backfiring. It sounded like it was at a low rpm (revolutions per minute). They reported that the nose was up, the wings were rocking, and the tail was moving back and forth. The right wing then dropped about 90 degrees, and the nose went nearly straight down.
The airplane came to rest behind a building. The right wing was under a truck, and the truck's front left wheel was on top of the right horizontal stabilizer. The right side of the fuselage and the vertical stabilizer rested against the truck's front bumper. Fire consumed most of the cabin area."
As far as the sputtering engine, I wonder if it could have been water in the tanks or maybe the mixture was calibrated to rich in the engine (the suspected cause of my engine problem).
Thanks for the report, bro.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the report, bro.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
[/ QUOTE ]
When we were making a sharp bank to the runway with my instructor at the controls I yelled "Watch out for stall-spin!" or something to that effect. When in that situation you don't want to die, so if you have been trained in the situation before, your mind is pretty good at picking those kinds of things out of your brain when in survival mode.
Thanks for the report, bro.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
[/ QUOTE ]
When we were making a sharp bank to the runway with my instructor at the controls I yelled "Watch out for stall-spin!" or something to that effect. When in that situation you don't want to die, so if you have been trained in the situation before, your mind is pretty good at picking those kinds of things out of your brain when in survival mode.
yeah thats what we did, while trying to restart the engine, we were at 2500 feet and we were in rural FL so there was lots of trees but not a lot of big fields so I picked a field, cleared some powerlines, and kinda nudged it into a tree line. The key is to keep the aircraft in control and get it to a low speed. It was a frontal impact with the trees and the seatbelts did their job.
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
yeah thats what we did, while trying to restart the engine, we were at 2500 feet and we were in rural FL so there was lots of trees but not a lot of big fields so I picked a field, cleared some powerlines, and kinda nudged it into a tree line. The key is to keep the aircraft in control and get it to a low speed. It was a frontal impact with the trees and the seatbelts did their job.
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How big and what type were the trees, as far as the thickness of trunks and branches go? Were you able to aim between the trunks to minimize the impact as much as possible?
yeah thats what we did, while trying to restart the engine, we were at 2500 feet and we were in rural FL so there was lots of trees but not a lot of big fields so I picked a field, cleared some powerlines, and kinda nudged it into a tree line. The key is to keep the aircraft in control and get it to a low speed. It was a frontal impact with the trees and the seatbelts did their job.
[/ QUOTE ]
How big and what type were the trees, as far as the thickness of trunks and branches go? Were you able to aim between the trunks to minimize the impact as much as possible?
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the report, bro.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I was training to get my PPL. The thing my instructor (a former F-4,F-15 pilot) drilled into my head over and over again is.
That if you ever have an engine failure on takeoff. To never,never attempt to return to the airport.
Because your more then likely too low on alt.
And trying to turn around and make the runway you will lose even more alt. and risk stalling/spining the airplane to cose to the gound.
He always told me no matter what pitch for best glide and began a scan for the safest place to land. Barring obstacles of course.
He said trying to return to the runway is what morts (as MikeD would say) more pilots as they typically end up crashing short of the runway in most cases.
-Matthew
Thanks for the report, bro.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I was training to get my PPL. The thing my instructor (a former F-4,F-15 pilot) drilled into my head over and over again is.
That if you ever have an engine failure on takeoff. To never,never attempt to return to the airport.
Because your more then likely too low on alt.
And trying to turn around and make the runway you will lose even more alt. and risk stalling/spining the airplane to cose to the gound.
He always told me no matter what pitch for best glide and began a scan for the safest place to land. Barring obstacles of course.
He said trying to return to the runway is what morts (as MikeD would say) more pilots as they typically end up crashing short of the runway in most cases.
-Matthew
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the report, bro.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I was training to get my PPL. The thing my instructor (a former F-4,F-15 pilot) drilled into my head over and over again is.
That if you ever have an engine failure on takeoff. To never,never attempt to return to the airport.
Because your more then likely too low on alt.
And trying to turn around and make the runway you will lose even more alt. and risk stalling/spining the airplane to cose to the gound.
He always told me no matter what pitch for best glide and began a scan for the safest place to land. Barring obstacles of course.
He said trying to return to the runway is what morts (as MikeD would say) more pilots as they typically end up crashing short of the runway in most cases.
-Matthew
[/ QUOTE ]
Usually true, but every situation is different. If the engine is dead, then definitely don't turn back. In my case the engine was producing enough power to maintain altitude and only got very rough when in a nose up attitude, so we were able to return to the runway with options to glide to a safe landing if the engine quit completely.
A good demonstration for student pilots is to go up to a safe altitude, simulate an engine failure and do a 180 at best glide. Note the altitude loss upon completion of the 180. That would need to be your AGL with some safety cushion added for reaction time and wind conditions before a 180 return to the runway would even be possible. An even then, you will probably be landing downwind so you may run out of runway real quick.
This is one of those cases where MS Flight Simulator can be a handy training aid. Have the student take off, depart straight out, and turn off the engine at 500 or 600 AGL. Offer to buy him a beer if he can make the runway. Then go up to 1000 AGL and try the same thing... probably still won't make it. I wonder if auto-rudder coordination is turned off if the program will accurately simulate a stall-spin?
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the report, bro.
They tend to give me pause and think, "Well, what would I do?"
But then, it's pretty easy for me to do from the comforts of a wireless connection in my living room instead of having the situation thrust upon me shortly after takeoff in a loud airplane, blue sky and shots of adrenalin racing around my veins.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I was training to get my PPL. The thing my instructor (a former F-4,F-15 pilot) drilled into my head over and over again is.
That if you ever have an engine failure on takeoff. To never,never attempt to return to the airport.
Because your more then likely too low on alt.
And trying to turn around and make the runway you will lose even more alt. and risk stalling/spining the airplane to cose to the gound.
He always told me no matter what pitch for best glide and began a scan for the safest place to land. Barring obstacles of course.
He said trying to return to the runway is what morts (as MikeD would say) more pilots as they typically end up crashing short of the runway in most cases.
-Matthew
[/ QUOTE ]
Usually true, but every situation is different. If the engine is dead, then definitely don't turn back. In my case the engine was producing enough power to maintain altitude and only got very rough when in a nose up attitude, so we were able to return to the runway with options to glide to a safe landing if the engine quit completely.
A good demonstration for student pilots is to go up to a safe altitude, simulate an engine failure and do a 180 at best glide. Note the altitude loss upon completion of the 180. That would need to be your AGL with some safety cushion added for reaction time and wind conditions before a 180 return to the runway would even be possible. An even then, you will probably be landing downwind so you may run out of runway real quick.
This is one of those cases where MS Flight Simulator can be a handy training aid. Have the student take off, depart straight out, and turn off the engine at 500 or 600 AGL. Offer to buy him a beer if he can make the runway. Then go up to 1000 AGL and try the same thing... probably still won't make it. I wonder if auto-rudder coordination is turned off if the program will accurately simulate a stall-spin?
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
That is sad. I also knew the guy. Went to school with him...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to remember who he was. I'm sure I'd recognize him if I saw his picture.
That is sad. I also knew the guy. Went to school with him...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to remember who he was. I'm sure I'd recognize him if I saw his picture.
alphaone
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
yeah thats what we did, while trying to restart the engine, we were at 2500 feet and we were in rural FL so there was lots of trees but not a lot of big fields so I picked a field, cleared some powerlines, and kinda nudged it into a tree line. The key is to keep the aircraft in control and get it to a low speed. It was a frontal impact with the trees and the seatbelts did their job.
[/ QUOTE ] Wow excellent job PIC man my hat is off to you. What were your thoughts as the situation was taking shape? Did the engine quit at once or slowly die? How did the airplane do while hitting the field? Thanks and awesome job as well, inspiration as well.
yeah thats what we did, while trying to restart the engine, we were at 2500 feet and we were in rural FL so there was lots of trees but not a lot of big fields so I picked a field, cleared some powerlines, and kinda nudged it into a tree line. The key is to keep the aircraft in control and get it to a low speed. It was a frontal impact with the trees and the seatbelts did their job.
[/ QUOTE ] Wow excellent job PIC man my hat is off to you. What were your thoughts as the situation was taking shape? Did the engine quit at once or slowly die? How did the airplane do while hitting the field? Thanks and awesome job as well, inspiration as well.
Thanks for the kudos. I dont remember if I was aiming between the trees or not, but I know that I didnt hit one directly. Its kind of a blur now, even though it was only 2.5 months ago. Once I stopped trying to restart the engine and focused on the landing, I just tried to keep control of the airplane, then when we were about to hit I told my student to open his door. Thats one of the things from training that I remembered to do. It's definitely a learning experience and you can look back and see what you would do differently, theres nothing like the real thing to train you on an emergency.
you didnt, i didnt make a post about it since I wanted the investigation to happen before the the facts were distorted and rumors came about. At the time, I was worried that having an accident on file (even though it wasnt my fault) would hurt my chances of a pilot job (kinda like car insurance rates) so that was another reason. But Im cool with it now, and I think that it has helped me become a better pilot because I now have the experience under my belt and can only do better if it- God forbid- ever happens again.
GreenDayPilot
Well-Known Member
For the record, the CFI was not, what I would call, "exprienced." He only had a few months worth of instructor hours under his belt. I remember when I was like that I made a mistake here and there, I think we all make mistakes, but we learn from them. Unfortunately, sometimes its hard to recover from mistakes. I'm not saying the instructor made a mistake, but I've flown out of long beach and immediatly after t/o there are numerous of large streets to land on so long as you dont exceed Vg, I think you'd be fine.
Oh, and has everyone ruled out weight and balance? He was a pretty big guy and the C152 don't really have a big payload. So for all I know, it could have been a mixture of engine trouble and w/b (dont think density altitude is high in LGB, though).
Oh, and has everyone ruled out weight and balance? He was a pretty big guy and the C152 don't really have a big payload. So for all I know, it could have been a mixture of engine trouble and w/b (dont think density altitude is high in LGB, though).