Dealing with death in aviation

You guys are all scaring me. I don't want to die, and don't want to lose anyone dying in aviation. Tell me if I am wrong but, accidents happen in a chain and if you break the chain or stay ahead of the "accident", whatever it is you should be fine? Right?
I know dealing with emergencies is a huge part of being a pilot, but if you deal with them the way you were trained you should be fine right?
As a young one freshly with my PPL and hearing about this stuff, I don't to end up like that. I was never really scared of flying, just super cautious, but since my engine failure (some of you know the story) I have been kind of been freaked about flying. Then I hear things like a CFI crashes and it just knocks my nerve.
frown.gif

I guess I just need someone to reinforce the notion that when you do everything in aviation the way it is supposed to be done, you will walk away....
 
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I just need someone to reinforce the notion that when you do everything in aviation the way it is supposed to be done, you will walk away....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be lying to you if I told you that was true. Death doesn't always discriminate. It's fairly equal-opportunity. Add to that, that people don't (and can't) always do everything the way it's supposed to be. Many factors outside the control of the pilot, as well as mistakes the pilot can and will make himself, also figure into the equation.

That's all the risk of aviation. Accept it and press on, or don't and remain on the ground. Your choice, and neither choice is wrong; it's just boils down to personal preference. Either way, it's a decision you'll have to make and live with.

.....which always makes me wonder when people refer to those that have perished in plane crashes that they "died doing what they loved". What? Falling and screaming?

The saying just sounds so......trite, I guess.
 
There are no guarantees, but you reduce the risk of dying or killing others by proper training and reacting properly to situations. I had a partial power failure once taking off out of SNA and the adrenilin gets going, you become hyper aware, and your actions are a direct result of training and practice you have in past. At least for me, the fear didn't come until after I was already on the ground and safe, thinking about what just happened. But, you can do everything right and still die. You can go to the circus and get trampled by an elephant too, or stay home and have your apartment building catch on fire and trap you. It's all about living your life and managing the risks as best you can.

It just really hits home when something like an engine failure in a 152 can kill an experienced CFI and his student. It's frustrating because you think that the outcome should have been different because of all the training for just such an incident. Could they have tried turning back to the airport before 1500 AGL instead of landing straight ahead and run out of options? It will take some time to know. You almost want hope it was something like that because it is a controllable event, something that you can learn from and not do yourself, rather than some freak situation that even though everything was done correctly ended in tragedy. Pilots are control freaks, and there is a desire to have control of the situation. That's why catastrophic in-flight fires and midairs scare me the most... there is little you can do to take control of the situation after they happen.
 
[ QUOTE ]
At the very least, you should take some solace in the fact that they died doing what they loved...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's been mentioned here before, but I highly doubt that the people involved, loved becoming a burning hole in the ground. The saying may seem nice but it is rather trite, if you will.

R.I.P.
 
[ QUOTE ]

It just really hits home when something like an engine failure in a 152 can kill an experienced CFI and his student. It's frustrating because you think that the outcome should have been different because of all the training for just such an incident. Could they have tried turning back to the airport before 1500 AGL instead of landing straight ahead and run out of options? It will take some time to know. You almost want hope it was something like that because it is a controllable event, something that you can learn from and not do yourself, rather than some freak situation that even though everything was done correctly ended in tragedy. Pilots are control freaks, and there is a desire to have control of the situation. That's why catastrophic in-flight fires and midairs scare me the most... there is little you can do to take control of the situation after they happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you just said that you can do everything right and still get morted (which I agree with). To add to what you say above about how an engine failure can kill a stud and his IP, consider that no matter what they do in the cockpit, there are any number of events or occurances, natural or freak, that are fully outside their control. Handling the engine out in and of itself probably wasn't too much of a problem, but maybe they had nowhere to set down.....nowhere very usable. Maybe they did everything right and still got bit.....happens to the best of pilots.

That's just something that needs to be accepted. The number of friends I've had get morted in aircraft accidents (a few of them witnessed first-hand) is in the mid teens, off the top of my head. It's going to happen in aviation, that's inevitable. Accept the fact, and the reality.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the very least, you should take some solace in the fact that they died doing what they loved...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's been mentioned here before, but I highly doubt that the people involved, loved becoming a burning hole in the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely uncalled for. You know what I meant. I would much rather die in an airplane crash than be stabbed to death, die in a car crash, or drown. Death is inevitable, but I'd like for it to be on my own terms.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It just really hits home when something like an engine failure in a 152 can kill an experienced CFI and his student. It's frustrating because you think that the outcome should have been different because of all the training for just such an incident. Could they have tried turning back to the airport before 1500 AGL instead of landing straight ahead and run out of options? It will take some time to know. You almost want hope it was something like that because it is a controllable event, something that you can learn from and not do yourself, rather than some freak situation that even though everything was done correctly ended in tragedy. Pilots are control freaks, and there is a desire to have control of the situation. That's why catastrophic in-flight fires and midairs scare me the most... there is little you can do to take control of the situation after they happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you just said that you can do everything right and still get morted (which I agree with). To add to what you say above about how an engine failure can kill a stud and his IP, consider that no matter what they do in the cockpit, there are any number of events or occurances, natural or freak, that are fully outside their control. Handling the engine out in and of itself probably wasn't too much of a problem, but maybe they had nowhere to set down.....nowhere very usable. Maybe they did everything right and still got bit.....happens to the best of pilots.

That's just something that needs to be accepted. The number of friends I've had get morted in aircraft accidents (a few of them witnessed first-hand) is in the mid teens, off the top of my head. It's going to happen in aviation, that's inevitable. Accept the fact, and the reality.

[/ QUOTE ] You can scan for traffic, and slip the airplane to "contain" a fire.
Mike, I really am considering a military flying career. I don't mean to ask it like this but what are the statistics on accidents/deaths? How much more dangerous is it?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mike, I really am considering a military flying career. I don't mean to ask it like this but what are the statistics on accidents/deaths? How much more dangerous is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much more dangerous is it? Well, apart from getting shot at, people trying to kill you, absolutely screwed-up ops in screwed-up environments, etc. The danger factor is sometimes very high, and always has the potential to be. It's just an occupational hazard of the job. I'll PM you more.
 
[ QUOTE ]
At the very least, you should take some solace in the fact that they died doing what they loved...

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously, seriously doubt that the fact that they enjoy flying was any solace at all during their final moments.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know it's been mentioned here before, but I highly doubt that the people involved, loved becoming a burning hole in the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely uncalled for. You know what I meant. I would much rather die in an airplane crash than be stabbed to death, die in a car crash, or drown. Death is inevitable, but I'd like for it to be on my own terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd much rather go in my sleep, thank you very much. I have the feeling that dying in an airplane crash usually gives you way too much time to think about what is about to happen. Car crash, for example, would typically be much quicker, therefore less *mental* anguish. I'll admit drowning doesn't sound too pleasant, though.

Gruesome topic? I suppose, but just remember who started it with an idiotic comment like "died doing what they love".
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd much rather go in my sleep, thank you very much. I have the feeling that dying in an airplane crash usually gives you way too much time to think about what is about to happen. Car crash, for example, would typically be much quicker, therefore less *mental* anguish. I'll admit drowning doesn't sound too pleasant, though.

Gruesome topic? I suppose, but just remember who started it with an idiotic comment like "died doing what they love".

[/ QUOTE ]

yeahthat.gif
 
How about this, instead of saying "Doing what they loved," instead saying "Doing what they enjoyed doing, knowing the risks that come with the activity and accepting to live instead of cower in the corner and be afraid of living life." I think that's a better way getting the point across.

I'm honestly a fairly fatelistic guy these days. I've come way too close to killing myself on way too many occassions (aviation or otherwise) and I've decided that you train as hard as you can and do everything correctly as much of the time as possible, but sometimes your number's up. Sorry, that's not very polite. And it's not very nice to the poor folks that get taken down with us sometimes, but it's honest. Cessna 414 on the wrong altitude (which happened to be my altitude)? Yeah that was scarry, but I've honestly almost been nailed by more drunk drivers than I have been rammed by 414's. Why do we become hyper sensitive to death when we start flying? I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel like I'm cheating death on I-94 going to see Emily more than when I flew out of Arlington (and that's saying a lot).

To me it's not just an attiude towards flying, it's an attitude towards life. I'm way more worried about getting killed on the highway than I am worried about becoming a smoking hole in the ground from an engine failure. I do everything I can do, then take what I can get.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mike, I really am considering a military flying career. I don't mean to ask it like this but what are the statistics on accidents/deaths? How much more dangerous is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much more dangerous is it? Well, apart from getting shot at, people trying to kill you, absolutely screwed-up ops in screwed-up environments, etc. The danger factor is sometimes very high, and always has the potential to be. It's just an occupational hazard of the job. I'll PM you more.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was working on air defense systems, the saying was that the difference between ATC systems and air defense control systems was that ATC systems were trying to keep aircraft apart while air defense/intercept control systems were trying to get them together.

I think the same is true of military flying in general. Between the formation flying, aerial refueling, and air intercepts, you are often going to be flying very close to another aircraft at a high rate of speed. Add in low-visibility conditions (night, weather, etc) and you can see how it can be a very challenging and dangerous environment even in peacetime.
 
Seriously. If I buy the farm in an airplane crash, I will haunt you from the grave forever if you say 'Doug died doing what he loved."
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the very least, you should take some solace in the fact that they died doing what they loved...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's been mentioned here before, but I highly doubt that the people involved, loved becoming a burning hole in the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely uncalled for. You know what I meant. I would much rather die in an airplane crash than be stabbed to death, die in a car crash, or drown. Death is inevitable, but I'd like for it to be on my own terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it's not on your own terms. You can't decide when you want to bite it in an airplane. Unless your a suicide agent.
Life decides when your time comes be it in a car a plane etc.

-Matthew
 
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously. If I buy the farm in an airplane crash, I will haunt you from the grave forever if you say 'Doug died doing what he loved."



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just saying, given the option of dying before my time (aka not in my sleep, which I agree, would be the best way) and forced to choose between shot/stabbed/drowning or airplane crash, I'd probably take the airplane crash. Of course, there are so many accident types that are possible, that it really is hugely dependent on situation. CFIT would be better than spinning to the ground. Just a half second of "oh [expletive]" and then that's it. No time to dwell on it.

I also agree with what John said. "Loved what they were doing while understanding the inherent risks".

But hey, it's just my way of coping, to tell myself that. Even if it's not true, it puts my mind at more ease, which is good, right?

Brings up an interesting side point if I may stray for a bit: would you want people to feel bad if you died suddenly? I surely wouldn't, I'd want it to be a celebration of the fact that I made it as long as I did. I understand it's hard losing someone, but we need to focus more on the life part than the untimely death part, and appreciate the time we *did* have with them.
 
[ QUOTE ]
.....which always makes me wonder when people refer to those that have perished in plane crashes that they "died doing what they loved". What? Falling and screaming?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think any of us are in a position to really know what the last moments of a doomed flight are like, but for most pilots, I don't think it would involve much freaking out. Read the CVR transcripts of airline crashes. I've never heard of any times when the pilots let go of the controls, crawled into the fetal position, and cried for their mommies, just waiting for impact.

If I remember correctly, the pilots of that Alaska Airlines flight that went into the ocean off the coast of California were doing everything they could, right up to the end. Some of the last words on the tape of that Pinnacle double engine failure were, "Oh, dude, we're going to hit houses." That might be a morbid realization, but it illustrates a certain calmness in the worst situations.

All of us are so trained on how to handle this, how to handle that, keep trying this, keep trying that...in the heat of the moment, we might consciously, "This is it," but I doubt it would go much further. Everything happens so fast.

My point is, for most crashes, it's not a bad way to go. You are distracted up until the last moment, then it's over. So if you cut out the time between the start of the emergency and impact, since the pilot is so distracted, then I'd say they died doing something they loved. At least I'd be ok with people saying that about me, if I ever end my life in a plane crash.

Now, here's the $1000 question: Why do we even care? Death is part of the universe, it's going to happen to all of us, sooner or later. Are we afraid of it? Why does it matter how we died, once we're dead? Personally, I believe death is nothing more than sleeping...you're just gone for a while (see #26 here). I definately don't want to die, but that's because I think there is a lot to enjoy in life, not because I'm afraid of death.
 
I agree with the above. When the engine quit, I was trying to restart all the way until like 300 feet (engine had stopped in this plane before and we were able to restart) and then I got prepared for impact into a tree line. All the sudden after the impact Im like, "Good Im alive and lets get the hell outta here". You never realize you are gonna die until a few seconds before hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the above. When the engine quit, I was trying to restart all the way until like 300 feet (engine had stopped in this plane before and we were able to restart) and then I got prepared for impact into a tree line. All the sudden after the impact Im like, "Good Im alive and lets get the hell outta here". You never realize you are gonna die until a few seconds before hand.

[/ QUOTE ] Just wondering, why didn't you pitch for the best glide speed and then find a landing spot and glide to it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top