Deal made on hours of training for co-pilots

Hopefully they recognize the benefit of flight instructors as acting in a multi-crew environment.

Lord knows that can be as much, if not more, of a challenge than flying with another seasoned professional.

But, the devil will clearly be in the details - that said 800 hours seems like a fine starting point.
 
Ohh, THANK GOD! 1500TT ATP would have really killed people. At that time regional would no linger need to exist! Pilots would just apply to the mainline. But boy am I happy!

But some what confused 800TT/ATP or 800TT in rigorous conditions like icing and adverse weather!








[sarcasm]
 
surreal1221 said:
Hopefully they recognize the benefit of flight instructors as acting in a multi-crew environment.

Lord knows that can be as much, if not more, of a challenge than flying with another seasoned professional.
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You and I both know that's a bit of a stretch...

In a flight instruction environment the CFI is king. Not quite how it works in a true multi-crew environment.
 
Pilotwannabe1123 said:
Ohh, THANK GOD! 1500TT ATP would have really killed people. At that time regional would no linger need to exist! Pilots would just apply to the mainline. But boy am I happy!
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Would have killed who? All the SJSers?

When I got to college in the fall of 2001 you couldn't buy a job at a regional, and then when hiring started back up again they weren't picking up 250 hour pilots.

The hiring spree of 2007 was an aberration, but it's hard for people to understand that if they just started paying attention to the industry a year or two prior to that.
 
Matt13C said:
Sorry, it was actually worse. Pilots paying to sit right seat, not the jump seat, removing a paid pilot position from the market.
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I don't disagree with this statement, but your earlier insinuation that the pilots don't touch anything is just plain wrong. GIA's crew environment is no different than any other airline's, with the crew swapping legs and splitting tasks normally.
 
You know, I'm starting to wonder if I'll even be able to qualify for my old job. I have an ATP and am PIC at a commuter airline, but 90%+ of my flying at this company up to this point has been single pilot. I've got about 600 hours of true multi-crew time in jets, and then maybe another 100 hours on top of that at my current job.

So what the hell? I can be PIC digging around hardball IFR in the northeast, but can't be SIC in a jet that does just about everything for you?
 
Okay, I don't usually make long rants on here but this has absolutely sent me to the edge. How is it that a group of people who have nothing to do with the industry can get up the nerve to go to congress and (I'm sorry to sound insensitive here) because they had a tragedy happen, change fundamental industry rules. Where does the magic number 1500 come from? I liken this kind of action to what happened in my hometown of Paducah, Kentucky when there was a school shooting at Heath High School just before Columbine. A young man walked in to the school BEFORE the bell rang and shot some people in the lobby. So, what do the schools in Paducah do? They implement a rule where AFTER the morning bell rings, each person who comes to a school campus must be scanned and checked in because all doors are locked. Had this rule been in effect at the time of the shooting, the same result would have occurred, meaning three people dead. The same deal applies to the Colgan crash, both pilots over 1500 hours so had this rule been in effect at the time of the crash, the crash still would have occurred, in my opinion. Now you may argue that "Well, the first officer would have gained more experience instructing or flying freight." BS I say, the more time I get in a specific aircraft flying those specific routes in that kind of weather is how I gain more valuable experience. And what is it about aviation that makes people think they can stick their noses in whenever they want? Yes, any time a life is lost, it is a tragedy. But come on, don't you think rest rules and better treatment and pay for pilots would improve safety a whole bunch more than this rule? This is so fitting because did you know that tomorrow, the Monday after we spring the clocks forward, is the day that has the most accidents on the roads than any other day of the year? This is attributed to the slight fatigue felt due to the loss of the one hour sleep, and thats just one hour!!!! Wake up people, why don't you go hammer congress about stiffer rules for getting a drivers license, or license suspension for texting while driving. Stay out of the industry rulemaking if you aren't a party to the industry. Your number throwing isnt helping. If you would like to make a suggestion, at least make it a substantial one inherent to the problem at hand like tougher oversight for training institutions, maybe a formal quasi-standardized approach to training, heck maybe even outsourced training where everybody is evaluated on the same level, or heaven forbid you take a look and see the trend of fatigue in accidents and lobby for that. Keep THE PUBLIC AWARE of what pilots have to go through in the industry, we aren't all guys working 10 days a month pulling 300k you know. But the fact is you want to do something to prevent this kind of thing from ever happening again. WE ALL WANT THIS. ALL US PILOTS STRIVE FOR SAFETY AND ARE CRUSHED EVERY TIME WE HEAR OF AN ACCIDENT WHERE LIFE IS LOST. Arbitrary numbers are just a way to say you did something. Id rather do the RIGHT thing than just SOME thing.
 
One of the family members of a victim of 3407 was a pilot for Continental Express.

I believe has been spearheading this.
 
If this rule is implemented, and there is another crash, what then? 3000hrs? Buy your own rating plus 1000 hours in type to sit right seat? Where does it stop? Why didn't this come up after the Comair Crash in Lexington? Simple fact, the pilots made a mistake in both instances. How about the experience level of the Southwest guys who overran at Midway and killed a child on the ground? Would guys with MORE hours have prevented the crash? No matter what we do regulationwise, there will continue to be accidents. We are human, and because of this crash, I GUARANTEE pilots in icing conditions on approach are more accutely aware of their airspeed now as opposed to before. Once again, we are HUMAN, no matter how experienced we are and how diligent, there will be mistakes made, poor judgements made, and accidents will occur.
 
3407 didn't crash because of icing, or even because it was in icing on approach; it crashed because the captain didn't perform stall recovery properly.
 
You are absolutely correct Jtrain, but I bet you every captain in the country and even outside of it NOW has thoroughly reviewed what happened, applied it to their aircraft to make sure it absolutely does not happen to them or they know NOW exactly what they will do in that situation. After COMAIR in LEX, you think everybody and their brother wasn't doing the age old student pilot checklist item CHECK RUNWAY ALIGNMENT WITH HEADING INDICATOR instead of routinely blasting off? I know I was and I get off the ground in 600 feet. And our Captain of 3407 flew the airplane incorrectly. It was pilot error. It wasn't "pilot had too few hours therefore he made a mistake."
 
sorrygottarunway said:
maybe I'm slow, but I don't get the 3407 connection at all that the article makes at the top. Renslow and Shaw were not below 1500 hours at all, way above in fact.
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Agreed... these new rules have NOTHING to do with the accident. And from the sound of it - having guys go searching for ice in hopes of an airline job down the road.... just bad news all around. As usual, good job government.
 
Goldmember said:
You are absolutely correct Jtrain, but I bet you every captain in the country and even outside of it NOW has thoroughly reviewed what happened, applied it to their aircraft to make sure it absolutely does not happen to them or they know NOW exactly what they will do in that situation. After COMAIR in LEX, you think everybody and their brother wasn't doing the age old student pilot checklist item CHECK RUNWAY ALIGNMENT WITH HEADING INDICATOR instead of routinely blasting off? I know I was and I get off the ground in 600 feet. And our Captain of 3407 flew the airplane incorrectly. It was pilot error. It wasn't "pilot had too few hours therefore he made a mistake."
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I'm not sure that was part of the checklist at Comair prior to that accident, actually.

I AM willing to bet, though, that the captain of 3407 had poor fundamentals, otherwise he would have responded to the stall recovery properly in his sleep. If guys spend their time flight instructing, and teaching stalls during their formative stages of flying, then fundamental problems are less likely to kill people later.

I think that's why they want more hours before you get into an airliner cockpit; more time to strengthen those fundamentals before getting behind the controls of an airliner.

250 hours is not enough to do so.
 
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