DCA, ATP, or an FBO?

H

Happy Harry

New Member
If your lazy/short on time skip to my convenient checklist at the bottom and forget my spiel. :-)


Hey everyone. I want to fly airplanes and make money (just enough to eat is fine)! I want to go to a school that operates under part 141 of the FARs, because from what I understand thats the best standard of education for a pilot that wants to fly for a career. Am I right?


I was almost certain that I was going to go to Delta Connection Academy. The guys I talked to there seemed really cool, minus one incident with some lady that seemed to have a little attitude. Everyone has bad days... The school seems to be top notch with its FITS training and High Altitude Training programs and their SR-20s look amazing and they are all glass which is alluring. Besides they “have the only program thats tailored to jumping right into being an airline pilot from day one.” But I have some very serious reservations about taking out a loan for more money than I've spent in total for the last 7 years of my life. I've also read that students more often than not pay well above the 100k that they tell you that you will spend. And in this hiring environment and economy that just doesn't seem smart to me. I've also heard that they don't treat their students and CFIs very well. If anyone has any first hand experience with any of this and DCA please let me know. Most of the stuff I've read was a few years back so I'm kinda taking it with a grain of salt and hoping DCA fixed these problems.


So, right now I'm considering other flight academies. ATP seems more reasonably priced and they seem to have a good program. I can't seem to find anything thats bad about them on any forums.


Lastly, I would like some more info about going the FBO route. Are these schools part 141 or 61 or does it depend on the school? Will I have one dedicated instructor for my training? From what I understand it can be cheaper than going to an academy and if you teach there, after you get your CFI, you can actually make more money as opposed to teaching at an academy. Is this true? How can you go wrong from training at an FBO? And can I get a training loan for training at an FBO or do most of the people that go that route have to work and pay outa pocket?




Happy Harry's Question Checklist for his Obnoxiously Long Post about Stuff that People have Already Answered and Are Probably Sick of Answering:



  1. Are part 141 schools the best to go to if I want to be an airline pilot?
  2. DCA: Thumbs up or down for quality of education?
  3. DCA: Thumbs up or down for learning environment (bad management? treat students bad? etc?)
  4. DCA overpriced?
  5. ATP: quality of education good/poor/outstanding? Learning environment good or bad? Anyone currently flying CFI there that likes it?
  6. Are there part 141 FBOs?
  7. Do you get one dedicated instructor at an FBO?
  8. Are FBOs cheaper than academies?
  9. Do you get paid more as a CFI at an FBO?
  10. What are the downsides of training at an FBO compared to an academy?
  11. Can I get a loan for FBO training or do I have to pay outa pocket?


My sincerest thanks to all of you in advance for taking the time to reply. I know theres a lot of questions here. It's nice to have found a place to talk to guys that aren't trying to sell me something. It can be slightly overwhelming for young guys like me trying to get their feet wet in aviation with all this info out there. Look forward to all of your opinions. Thanks again!
 
Do Search here on DCA and you'll have all the material you could ever want. I would look to see if you could get your ratings at an FBO for less $$$ than ATP.
 
Research is the key, but on the other hand if you put "part 141 pilot training" in google, you'll get.... maybe 175,000 hits.

If you don't have the money sitting in a bank account, an FBO is the way to go. FBO's come in the part 61 and part 141 variety, and a lot of times, both.

You might also research loans for non-collegant pilot training as well, they are a rare commodity right now.

Good Luck
 
Thank you both very much! I've read all the bad stuff about DCA so I'm steering clear of them. I'm trying to find a list of FBOs in my area and I did find one...a massive one, but it was hard to narrow down my search. Any suggestions for a good way to find FBOs in the area? Maybe just call local airports? And I looked at one FBO school close to me that quotes a price for and "airline transport" course at $65,000. I still need to call to inquire about the hours and specifically which ratings that includes but that price is more than ATPs... I'll keep lookin into FBOs though. Thanks again so much for the help. Keep it comin :-)
 
Keep this in mind when you talk to any school:

1. Prices are almost always based on FAA Minimum times, you're going to use more time than the FAA Minimums if you're an average Joe.... or Harry:D.

2. Examiner fees included in price? Probably not.

3. Any extra Fuel charges. Do they reimburse full price of fuel on long cross countries?

4. Other fees or surprises? Almost always are some:eek:

I'm sure there's more, but I've been up since 5am.
 
Never did it the DCA or ATP way so I can't say anything "bad" about them. I trained at an FBO, which was through our part 141 college program... got everything except my MEI for under $30,000 (thats including school tuition and all the bs college courses). There's a million ways to skin the cat. Think about your payments during/after your training when you are making a sub $30,000 salary. The training was just as good as anywhere else since it was 10miles from PHL bravo and 15 from NY bravo. Make sure you have all the facts, prices and what not. Everyone I know that went to those "big schools and colleges" don't have jobs right now... I'm on the lucky side w/ a job and no debt. Just some food for thought. good luck
 
Thanks BillErvin. I'm definitely an average Harry lol so I'll be sure to be realistic with how long it takes me to train and what not. Those are all great questions to ask and I'll be sure to ask them. Econ, I think you found the way to go! If I could get my private, inst, cfi, cfii, and commercial for $30,000 I'd do that in a heart beat. I'm already out of college though so I wonder if your training was cheaper because it was rolled in with a college program. Anyways thanks to all of you. I really feel a lot better about taking the FBO route for training.

Can I get financing for training at an FBO? And if I can is it harder to do so because its a fixed base operator and not an academy? Econ I think you implied that you financed your training because you mentioned not being in ridiculous debt. But again I'm wondering if because your training was rolled in with a college program that financing might be easier for you to get?

Anyone finance their training at an FBO?
 
Happy Harry said:
  1. Are part 141 schools the best to go to if I want to be an airline pilot? No, both part 61 and 141/142 have their own advantages. For sake of brevity, I'd recommend just going through a couple of threads using the search function keyword 61, 141
  2. DCA: Thumbs up or down for quality of education?my opinion? thumbs down based on curriculum structure and self study, but thumbs up on the fact that they seem to be about average when compared to other pilot mills
  3. DCA: Thumbs up or down for learning environment (bad management? treat students bad? etc?)thumbs down. there are a few stories here about battles with getting flight time, proper training and management issues. But, then again those are only ones I've heard, not direct knowledge
  4. DCA overpriced?you betcha.
  5. ATP: quality of education good/poor/outstanding?the pilots i've flown with from ATP tend to be pretty good pilots overall, but bear in mind they also had backgrounds from places like daniel webster college and other previous flight backgrounds where their foundation was established prior to the program Learning environment good or bad? dont knowAnyone currently flying CFI there that likes it?
  6. Are there part 141 FBOs?yes
  7. Do you get one dedicated instructor at an FBO?Absolutely. If you find the right one who isn't planning on a new job in 6 months its highly possible. i stayed at one FBO for 2.5 years
  8. Are FBOs cheaper than academies?generally speaking, yes
  9. Do you get paid more as a CFI at an FBO?I always have, but then again I'm looking at chief and asst chief positons at flight schools now which could throw that off
  10. What are the downsides of training at an FBO compared to an academy?personally, I cant think of any
  11. Can I get a loan for FBO training or do I have to pay outa pocket?
you can get loans if the FBO is set up for them
Click to expand...
 
Something I realized after going to said school. Places like ATP, DCA, and others only will teach you the minimum required information, maneuvers, techniques all for the same price as a program where you can gain significant experience, maneuvers, and more time in the same aircraft for the same amount of money someplace else. Every flight school has to follow the same set of guidelines and requirements for student pilots to reach the achievable license and rating, so why spend the money on something where you will go out to fly everyday with the information you learned?
 
I think there are a lot of benefits to flight academies that a lot of people ignore/don't know about.

1. If you're going to an academy you are probably full time which means no lapse in training. This can have have a huge advantage with regard to retaining information, i.e. fewer remedial flights.

2. You are constantly surrounded by aviation. You tend to pick up on things by overhearing conversations. Also, you are surrounded by others that have more experience that you can pull from.

3. You probably have fronted the cash up front for tuition which, at least for me, gave me even more incentive to study and pass my lessons on schedule.

4. 141 syllabus' are designed very carefully and progress at a challenging yet realistic pace.

5. A 141 school is geared more toward airline training. Higher standards are usually held. I received CRM and upset recovery training. Also, the instructors who taught the ground courses were all ex-airline pilots with thousands of hours of experience.

I'm not saying flight Academies are the holy grail of flight training, but they do hold their 141 designation for a reason. I know there is no way I could have obtained my CFI certificate in the time I did at a 61 school. Best of luck with your decision.
 
Happy Harry said:
  1. Are part 141 schools the best to go to if I want to be an airline pilot?
  2. DCA: Thumbs up or down for quality of education?
  3. DCA: Thumbs up or down for learning environment (bad management? treat students bad? etc?)
  4. DCA overpriced?
  5. ATP: quality of education good/poor/outstanding? Learning environment good or bad? Anyone currently flying CFI there that likes it?
  6. Are there part 141 FBOs?
  7. Do you get one dedicated instructor at an FBO?
  8. Are FBOs cheaper than academies?
  9. Do you get paid more as a CFI at an FBO?
  10. What are the downsides of training at an FBO compared to an academy?
  11. Can I get a loan for FBO training or do I have to pay outa pocket?
Click to expand...
141 versus 61 doesn't matter you are tested to the same standards.

I don't know about DCA or ATP. I've heard DCA is way overpriced though.

141 FBOs are common.

Sometimes you get a dedicated instructor sometimes you have to switch because your instructor doesn't have the necessary ratings or gets hired somewhere else. Also don't be shy about firing an instructor.

Usually FBO instructors make more per hour but sometimes don't log as many hours.

The biggest downside I see to the FBO is you don't get to know as many other future airline pilot as you would at an academy. It's a different atmosphere really at an FBO everyone is talking about the hobby of flying versus at an academy it's more career oriented.

I know of FBOs that offer financing. I got a federal student loan at the big school I went to.
 
Happy Harry said:
Thanks BillErvin. I'm definitely an average Harry lol so I'll be sure to be realistic with how long it takes me to train and what not. Those are all great questions to ask and I'll be sure to ask them. Econ, I think you found the way to go! If I could get my private, inst, cfi, cfii, and commercial for $30,000 I'd do that in a heart beat. I'm already out of college though so I wonder if your training was cheaper because it was rolled in with a college program. Anyways thanks to all of you. I really feel a lot better about taking the FBO route for training.

Can I get financing for training at an FBO? And if I can is it harder to do so because its a fixed base operator and not an academy? Econ I think you implied that you financed your training because you mentioned not being in ridiculous debt. But again I'm wondering if because your training was rolled in with a college program that financing might be easier for you to get?

Anyone finance their training at an FBO?
Click to expand...

The pricing was not any cheeper being a college student. They offered a part 141 and 61 program. At the same time, I worked two jobs to get through everything. Its just a matter of motivation towards your end goals. I could be totally wrong in saying this (which is quite often) but in my opinion alot of those academies shuffle people through the door. I've seen it while flying on the line, former students and other captain/sic I have flown with. By no means am I saying that about all or any academy in particular... I'm trying not to judge here. As long as you find a place that will sincerely take you under their wing and really care about your training, ur set! I just totallllllly disagree with alot of places simply preparing you to pass a checkride and thats all. Thats the easy way out. PM me if any ?s
 
Any plan on a degree?
You need an education and a CFI, more than you need a flight "school".

I got a degree and my ratings for less than 30,000.
Education is primary.
 
Douglas said:
Any plan on a degree?
You need an education and a CFI, more than you need a flight "school".

I got a degree and my ratings for less than 30,000.
Education is primary.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the reply Douglas. I have a degree. I understand the importance of getting a degree and know that to be competitive for hire at a regional, especially today, I need the degree.

The reason I posted here was to learn about the different options for training. And I'm glad I did because otherwise I would have never known or guessed that someone, such as yourself and Econ, could get their degree AND all their ratings (minus MEI for Econ) for less than the cost of any flight training program I have seen. Even the local FBOs I've recently looked into quoted me prices from 40-50k for my Private, Commercial, Instrument, Multi Engine, CFI, CFII, and MEI.

Please give me some more information about your training. Something isn't adding up for me here. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places... If either you or Econ care to elaborate for me on how you managed to do all that for the price you've quoted it would be tremendously appreciated.

tjvpa28 and Dynasty22 please forgive me for my statement about flying for low pay that you quoted. It was meant only as a joke and I wanted to make the point that I understood that pilots don't make very good money most of the time. I realize now that maybe it was insensitive on some level, especially for you guys that have been furloughed and that have mouths to feed other than your own.

Ya know I watch the news every day and its seems like every other week there is an accident or a serious incident of some kind. I don't know first hand what it's like to be a pilot but I do know that you all have sacrificed and worked very hard to obtain the ability to command an aircraft. Further, pilots bear the responsibility of the lives and safety of their passengers. An individual with these challenges in their work environment, skill, and responsibility should be compensated accordingly for their work. I sincerely apologize if I offended or upset anyone. That wasn't my intent. I know many pilots are out of work and are not being paid what they should be. Please forgive me for my naiveness.
 
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