ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
Let me know when you're in town next.
Current upgrade time
- Thread starter Blackhawk
- Start date
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
No doubt. But after thinking I had the "whole package" as a somewhat long time RJ FO, now that I'm flying as a new 121 PIC I have to say - wow. You really do learn a lot in the left seat, and everyday I'm just amazed how different the job is. It absolutely should hold more weight IMO than FO time.
As far as the other "metrics" involved in Legacy hiring... I can't even begin to understand it, so I'm glad you do. I've seen some fantastic folks not get the call or get rejected, and some real jackasses get the call right away. I remain convinced it's a very imperfect process.
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surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Right. These are things I'm aware of; however, I was not aware that it was back on the table.
Was this mentioned in this week's Facebook Chat with the MEC or the All-Pilot conference call yesterday evening?
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
They just might find themselves on the out if St George decides to dust off a spare operating certificate they got hanging around.
nagylyk
Well-Known Member
It seems to me that one can have the "whole package" without having experience with the tiller. I don't doubt you at all that you are better pilot than you were before you sat in the left seat. But it seems like when the majors are looking for the "whole package", it has more to do with who you are and what you can bring to the table both in and out of the flight deck, then just PIC vs. Non-PIC. I'm sure you've learned a ton in the left seat but aren't we always learning at each step we go? For instance, when have we "learned enough" and now have the "whole package"? Is it when we are captains at a regional? How about a captain at major? Does he/she have the whole package? how about check airmen at a major? etc...
Just my 2 cents. My guess is you've busted your butt to get where you are now, and have had the "whole package" long before the PIC time.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
I don't disagree with that. I know several people at my current employer that have moved on with zero TPIC, and they are great people that will (or are doing) an excellent job. I'm just saying that some 121 PIC time seems to add a significant amount to the "whole package". Knowing what the PIC is dealing with at certain moments just has to be a big advantage. Even Doug seemed to hint at that that when he wrote up his year in review as a new airline captain.
nagylyk
Well-Known Member
I see what you're saying and I don't disagree that it adds something, but in my opinion, that isn't the thing that gives one the "whole package". Because we're always learning, it's impossible to always "know what the PIC is dealing with"...The regional captain probably won't fully know what a narrow-body captain going into south america non radar at night is dealing with...nor does the airbus captain necessarily know what the 777 captain crossing the ocean at night with a mx issue is dealing with. Doesn't mean that each of them doesn't have the "whole package".
Anyways, didn't mean to hijack the thread, just thought i'd throw my 2 cents in. It's always an interesting discussion.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
It was in the conference call. I was driving to pick up my son while listening on speaker and it took a minute for me to understand what I was listening to after some of the questions.
Again, this is not some panacea that will result in an immediate breakthrough and by itself it won't result in any major shift in upgrade time (though it's a step in the right direction). It merely gave me pause and reminded me of how sometimes in the past major shifts in a company are proceeded by seemingly minor changes.
Of course I also hear in medicine that a patient's body sometimes gines a shot of adrenalin and seems to make a recovery just prior to passing away.
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HRDiva
Well-Known Member
DH always says to take the upgrade! He commuted PHL-SJU just to avoid hearing how to fly!
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I look at some of the high time FOs I fly with and honestly think many of them would probably be better new hires at legacy carriers than I would be. They have the FO thing down. They know how to be "chameleons" and blend in with the captain. They know the airplanes, the operations, the airports. They know how to be assertive in the cockpit without attempting a role reversal. They can handle things without supervision. They know the nuances of how to be an effective crew that you pick up only with experience.
charlie1017
Well-Known Member
I used to think just like you... And then I finally did the left seat thing. It's not that it merely adds something... It's a whole different job. One that gives you a global perspective and responsibility that you simply aren't used to having as an FO. It made me reflect on my own past performance as an FO, and how to tweak things to be even better in that right seat.
Is TPIC the end-all/be all??? Absolutely not! A well rounded FO with good educational background, clean record, volunteering experience and/or training department credentials, leadership outside the cockpit, etc can measure up against an average joe CA any day. But a plain vanilla FO that has spent all his/her time doing nothing to improve the resume vs a guy that did upgrade? I think the answer is clear.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I'm in newhire training right now and it is readily apparent to me that I haven't learned a new plane in 8 years.
It's doable, but definitely challenging. If someone finds themselves at an airline with more than one fleet type, switching every couple years might not be a bad idea to keep the brain sharp. Doing the same job from the same seat for the better part of a decade has not done me any favors.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Regional FO to Major/LCC Fo should be an easy jump. I'd say Major/LCC FO is the easiest job out there today. Regional Captain is more difficult IMO.
Saying a regional FO is OK on the line at a major shouldn't come as a huge surprise. He's passed an indoc and now is flying better equipment at a better airline with really experienced Captains.
Saying a regional FO is OK on the line at a major shouldn't come as a huge surprise. He's passed an indoc and now is flying better equipment at a better airline with really experienced Captains.
nagylyk
Well-Known Member
Those that bust their butts to get where they want to go...will get there. And those that don't...probably won't get there.
I think what I can take away from this debate is that to each of us, "the whole package" is different...and until we are the ones sitting on the other side of the interview desk/computer, we won't know for sure what exactly that person is looking for...
...besides cake. I think we can all agree that cake="the whole package".
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Bravo to you for having had that realization...but it probably means a lot more than you're expressing here, too.
I think the problem is any pilot who, ever, thinks they have "the whole package". I remember being a 1000-hour, senior Captain (O-3) fighter pilot (flight leader, mission commander, etc) just finishing a combat tour, thinking that I had it all figured out. What a silly, naive thing to have thought. That was over a decade ago...I can't tell you how much I've learned about flying and airmanship since then.
The more experience I get, the more I realize how little I actually know. I am a much better airman for that understanding.
grkero
fer yer health
Ain't seen nothin till you had to fill out a load sheet on an ACARS weight and balance!!
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
"Hey, you seen the CEEEE GEEEE?!!"
I hated that thing. Had to do it for the E120 and CL65.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Child's play!
It's too bad I can't post a pic of the tables used to design a GBU-24 bombing attack. Makes See Gee look like a kindergarten toy.
@ryan1234, do you guys even use the "triple sticks" (the -34-1-1-1) anymore?
Thank god we have computers for this crap nowadays.