Curious question

S

Skyway

Well-Known Member
Hello fellow aviators,

I am a regional first officer, on one of my longer flights (perhaps out of sheer boredom), I was wondering if any of you may know people who have served in special ops and then transitioned into fighter pilots, then on to perhaps a legacy airline?

I understand this Perhaps seems a silly question and all, but how cool it would be ( to me anyways) to be a Navy SEAL; Marine Recon; Delta, or a Green Beret, then become a fighter or even a military transport pilot, then retire at a legacy.

Flying longer routes can sure make a person reflect on things, and I wish I would have done something like that instead of the typical flight instruct, college, regional routine. Anyhow thanks for any input.
 
How cool? I don't know. An enlisted SEAL getting his commission and wings is kind of cool, but even with that I think the cool part is getting the commission.

For a SEAL officer to change communities, not especially cool in my book unless there are other factors to make it cool. I might even consider it a downward trajectory.
 
I doubt any enlisted SEAL that gets commissioned has any desire whatsoever to fly as a naval aviator, much less fly as a civilian airline pilot afterwards. As far as they'd be concerned it'd be a downgrade to go fly as a fighter pilot, and another downgrade to fly as a civilian pilot.

One enlisted SEAL that I know got his commission had to put up with being a ship-driver navy officer for two years before he could get back to being a SEAL officer. They made him go back thru BUDS a second time and gave him crap for wearing the trident he earned the first time thru BUDS. He was the humblest guy I knew, even though he had no desire to be a surface officer and could have sulked about his bad luck in being commissioned into the surface community, he gave it 110% everyday and was on track to have a very successful career as a surface warfare officer. He looked forward to getting back to his SEAL community.

I guess the closest to what you were looking for: I encountered an Army officer wearing Naval Aviator wings, so I asked him what his deal was, and he was a Marine Corps F-18 pilot, got out, went into the Army Reserve, got hired into the pool for Southwest, got mobilized after 9/11 and was just gone too long and lost his spot in the pool at southwest. He was going to finish out the rest of his 20 and wait until then to decide what to do.
 
I was in Air Force ROTC back in the early 90s with a guy who did exactly what the OP is talking about. He'd been a Ranger with 1SFOD-D, then separated from the Army, earned a USAF Commission through ROTC at State U, was selected to go to pilot training (which was even more insanely competitive in the post-Desert Storm early 90s), flew fighters in the USAF, left the AF in the mid-00s, and now flies for a major airline (I believe with a non-flying AF traditional reserve job on the side).

He's the only guy I personally know who has done that, but I have to guess that there are others out there.
 
Hacker15e said:
I was in Air Force ROTC back in the early 90s with a guy who did exactly what the OP is talking about. He'd been a Ranger with 1SFOD-D, then separated from the Army, earned a USAF Commission through ROTC at State U, was selected to go to pilot training (which was even more insanely competitive in the post-Desert Storm early 90s), flew fighters in the USAF, left the AF in the mid-00s, and now flies for a major airline (I believe with a non-flying AF traditional reserve job on the side).

He's the only guy I personally know who has done that, but I have to guess that there are others out there.
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I've heard of a couple of enlisted SEAL's that got commissions and wings but no officers that jumped communities.
 
I work with a lot of special forces every day. Some of them have moved on to legacy airlines - so yes, it happens. They are people just like you and me who have done extraordinary things in some cases. Some of them you wouldn't think were SF.

While this guy isn't a pilot (Mark Nutsch), I do work with him - pretty interesting story:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Warlord-Warrior-Special/dp/1613748000
http://www.amazon.com/Horse-Soldiers-Extraordinary-Victory-Afghanistan/dp/1416580522/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1401490037&sr=1-1&keywords=horse soldiers
 
Our big XO was an enlisted SEAL, then commissioned, became a Hornet pilot, and is now the XO of an aircraft carrier. So it can happen. I doubt he will be going to the airlines however.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I love Mustang stories. My father was a Mustang.
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I know there has been a heated debate amongst our pounders (all of whom were prior E's) as to what constitutes a Mustang. The guys who were first classes prior to commissioning swear it is any officer who was previously enlisted. The guys who made Chief before commissioning swear it is a term only reserved for E7 or above who then commission. I don't know which is right (maybe you do), but it is always an entertaining session in big league-ing.
 
///AMG said:
I know there has been a heated debate amongst our pounders (all of whom were prior E's) as to what constitutes a Mustang. The guys who were first classes prior to commissioning swear it is any officer who was previously enlisted. The guys who made Chief before commissioning swear it is a term only reserved for E7 or above who then commission. I don't know which is right (maybe you do), but it is always an entertaining session in big league-ing.
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The debate continues.

My dad doesn't consider himself a Mustang as he embraces the old definition, chief to officer, usually a warrant officer.

I think if you had aircrewman wings and got a commission during continuous service, you're a Mustang regardless of rate.

So, I guess I take a middle ground position. I don't think that just having prior service counts, I think you need to be active duty enlisted when selected and have needed to serve in some significant capacity. Changing communities also seems less Mustangish in my mind.

The term Mustang has always implied selection from the enlisted ranks based on exceptional service. So, I don't think a common career progression makes you a Mustang.
 
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///AMG said:
I know there has been a heated debate amongst our pounders (all of whom were prior E's) as to what constitutes a Mustang. The guys who were first classes prior to commissioning swear it is any officer who was previously enlisted. The guys who made Chief before commissioning swear it is a term only reserved for E7 or above who then commission. I don't know which is right (maybe you do), but it is always an entertaining session in big league-ing.
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Pilot Fighter said:
The debate continues.

I think if you had aircrewman wings and got a commission during continuous service, you're a Mustang regardless of rate.

So, I guess I take a middle ground position. I don't think that just having prior service counts, I think you need to be active duty enlisted when selected and have needed to serve in some significant capacity. Changing communities also seems less Mustangish in my mind.

The term Mustang has always implied selection from the enlisted ranks based on exceptional service. So, I don't think a common career progression makes you a Mustang.
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Is exceptional service defined someplace as a requirement? I ask because the problem that could arise from needing prior service in some significant capacity, is now making some enlisted jobs more equal than others, to use the Animal Farm reference, in terms of some overall value provided.
 
MikeD said:
Is exceptional service defined someplace as a requirement? I ask because the problem that could arise from needing prior service in some significant capacity, is now making some enlisted jobs more equal than others, to use the Animal Farm reference, in terms of some overall value provided.
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I've never heard of the term Mustang being used outside of Naval aviation, so I'll limit my comments to that arena.

First, a bit of history. In the 60's, it was decided that all Navy bombardiers and navigators (and a few enlisted pilots) should be officers and the NFO qualification was created. Some enlisted B/N's retired enlisted. Others were given commissions as warrant officers. Some participated in programs that funneled them to OCS. The warrant officers were Mustangs.

By the end of the Vietnam-era, all this mess was sorted out.

At this point, warrant officers became rarer, used to serve the immediate needs of the Navy and address shortages. I don't think there is a warrant billet that has to be filled.

If you need an NFO, giving a chief a commission as a warrant officer is not a great strategy. You lose an experienced chief and haven't saved much time getting another NFO to the fleet. So, why are there any warrant commissions? Well, there are exceptional cases that can't be ignored. The enlisted SENSO in the back that got an engineering degree on his own, has shown initiative by learning the other crew tasks, and has immaculate fitreps - he's going to have some fans with stripes. He's exceptional. Of course, these days he's probably more likely to get a fresh stab at OCS if he's young enough.

I'm not sure of the current state of the Navy's warrant officer, I imagine they are rarer today than a decade or two ago. [Wrong, I forgot about Flying CWO program that started feeding a few airframes in 2009 or so.]
 
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Pilot Fighter said:
I've never heard of the term Mustang being used outside of Naval aviation, so I'll limit my comments to that arena.
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I know it's a Navy-born term, I just don't know all the nuances behind it.

First, a bit of history. In the 60's, it was decided that all Navy bombardiers and navigators (and a few enlisted pilots) should be officers and the NFO qualification was created. Some enlisted B/N's retired enlisted. Others were given commissions as warrant officers. Some participated in programs that funneled them to OCS. The warrant officers were Mustangs.

By the end of the Vietnam-era, all this mess was sorted out.

At this point, warrant officers became rarer, used to serve the immediate needs of the Navy and address shortages. I don't think there is a warrant billet that has to be filled.

If you need an NFO, giving a chief a commission as a warrant officer is not a great strategy. You lose an experienced chief and haven't saved much time getting another NFO to the fleet. So, why are there any warrant commissions? Well, there are exceptional cases that can't be ignored. The enlisted SENSO in the back that got an engineering degree on his own, has shown initiative by learning the other crew tasks, and has immaculate fitreps - he's going to have some fans with stripes. He's exceptional. Of course, these days he's probably more likely to get a fresh stab at OCS if he's young enough.

I'm not sure of the current state of the Navy's warrant officer, I imagine they are rarer today than a decade or two ago.
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With regards to history, you look at some old pics or descriptions of events from back in the day.....Vietnam era and such.......of USN/USMC air operations, and some interesting things do show up: I can remember reading descriptions of USMC KC-130 pilots, where the guy's rank is CWO3, or a USMC A-6 B/N who is CWO3. Were Warrants both aviatiors as well as NFOs in both of theose services for all airframes? And when did that stop?

Today, there are USN Warrants who are aviators for P-3 and helicopter community, but I don't know how they necessarily assimilate them into the squadrons other than just line pilots with maybe some basic additional duties, because they can't be department heads or anything, I wouldn't think? And I'm not certain if there are Warrant NFOs.
 
MikeD said:
I know it's a Navy-born term, I just don't know all the nuances behind it.



With regards to history, you look at some old pics or descriptions of events from back in the day.....Vietnam era and such.......of USN/USMC air operations, and some interesting things do show up: I can remember reading descriptions of USMC KC-130 pilots, where the guy's rank is CWO3, or a USMC A-6 B/N who is CWO3. Were Warrants both aviatiors as well as NFOs in both of theose services for all airframes? And when did that stop?

Today, there are USN Warrants who are aviators for P-3 and helicopter community, but I don't know how they necessarily assimilate them into the squadrons other than just line pilots with maybe some basic additional duties, because they can't be department heads or anything, I wouldn't think? And I'm not certain if there are Warrant NFOs.
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My knowledge of the Vietnam-era is somewhat limited, I'm only 50. None of my father's operational squadrons, 1964-1984, had any CWO pilots (Connie, Spad, Whale, Prowler), so CWO pilots were probably found outside tacair. In two Prowler squadrons he had one CWO ECMO. I don't think his Whale squadrons had any CWO B/N's, but there were some in this era.

In the 80's and 90's, I don't recall a CWO COTAC or TACCO in S-3's, although there might have been a couple. I am aware of a couple of enlisted SENSO's that got a fresh stab at OCS and earned their wings.

Not sure of the status of the Flying CWO program now, but it trains both pilots and NFO's for the P-3, EP-3, E-6, and some flavor of SH-60. This program slipped my mind in my previous post, I guess CWO's are on the rise since 2009 (?). Those communities are easy to forget.

As this is a new program, I'm not sure what department head positions they are eligible for. I would imagine the offering would be limited, maybe "assistant dept head". I know there have been warrants that were squadron maintenance officers in the past owing to their experience.

I always thought that CWO or LDO IP's would be a smart move but historically nobody wanted to reduce seats for unrestricted line officers. Could we see many of the new CWO pilots end up as IP's?
 
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