Crossroads: Law School vs Flying Career

Beech_Flyer

Beech_Flyer

Well-Known Member
First off – Although this is my first post, I've found the insights on this board to be invaluable so far and really appreciate all of the contributors that make it such a great resource. Hopefully I'll be able to pay it forward someday!

I recently graduated from college with a degree in Political Science (regrettably, a spectacularly useless fallback qualification), and managed to score well enough on the LSAT to put myself in contention for several well-ranked law schools here in the Northeast. However, having spent the past several months working at a law firm in a variety of practice areas as a paralegal, it has become quite clear that my reasons for pursuing a legal career were based primarily on other people's expectations and fueled by my ignorance of what lawyers do on a day to day basis. Think doc review and pagination in a windowless basement....

Although I'm confident that I could succeed at law school and perform to a reasonable standard as a lawyer thereafter, based on my experience I really don't think that I would ever be fully invested in the profession, which is problematic.

I have my PPL with a modest amount of hours, and have spent most of my childhood involved with aviation in some way or another (my father had a small share in an ancient Bonanza and my uncle is an A&P mechanic). Given the state of the industry from 9/11 to present, I was always told from a young age that attempting to become a pilot was tantamount to professional suicide, which is why I pushed it out of my mind for as long as possible. That being said, there is no doubt that I would seize any opportunity to translate my passion into a viable career, and it seems like the tide is finally turning (granted no one actually knows what lies around the corner in the aviation industry).

Am I certifiably insane to forego a potentially far more lucrative career in law (bearing in mind the crippling debt burden of $250,000) for a line of work that could be potentially derailed by anything from an oil price spike to arbitrary corporate 'rightsizing'? I still have quite a bit of time to make a decision (March at the earliest), but I thought that soliciting advice on this forum would be a good start.

Any and all counsel is welcome – thanks in advance!
 
Go to graduate school. If your GPA is good enough, take the GRE and apply to a masters program that will give you a TA/GA stipend or at least a tuition waiver. Get training in stats and research methods.

I have two political science degrees and am employed in my dream job in aviation for a stupid salary.
 
You only live once and life is not about money. Do what you think you would enjoy. If you devote your life to what you love then the money is secondary. Obviously you need enough to live on, but what point is it to be a rich miserable lawyer if what you love to do is flying.

Another point, that I am sure will be made, is that you can become a rich lawyer and then buy your own airplane to fly on weekends. Possible, but how many lawyers actually become rich?


Typhoonpilot
 
I majored in philosophy, with a minor in political science, and graduated from undergraduate in 2005. I eventually got a job at a regional, but was summarily furloughed within 18 months of taking that position. I found myself being furloughed into the worst recession this country had seen since the great depression, with no hope of getting my job back anytime soon.

So I did what I was supposed to do; I took the LSAT, applied to a bunch of schools, and went to law school.

I didn't do great on the LSAT, but I didn't bomb it (153), and found myself attending a local law school at home in southeast Michigan (NOT Cooley). Within about 3 weeks of getting to law school, I realized I had made a horrible, horrible mistake, and that law school wasn't for me, but at that point, with the economy in shambles (this was the fall of 2009), no chance of being recalled to my job at my regional anytime soon, and no real options, I pressed on.

I was recalled halfway through my 2L year.

Now here's where I'll admit attending my little tier 4 school helped; the school was willing to work with me to finish my degree part time while I flew. I eventually graduated in the spring of 2013.

With hard work and good luck, I'll never have to practice law.

I'll be honest with you; if I knew now what I knew then, I would never gone to law school. I had no practical experience of working in a law firm, and I had no idea what the work entailed. I thought law school would just be more school, like what I did in undergraduate, but more intense. What I found was that I couldn't stand the work, and couldn't stomach the idea of doing this for 80 hours a week. Worse, the pay was going to be terrible for me; I found the only place I was comfortable was doing work at the local public defender's office, and while it was satisfying work, it's a terribly depressing pay check.

So if you've gotten a glimpse of what the law looks like, and you hate it, then RUN. Go fly airplanes, or take @Murdoughnut's advice and get a graduate degree in political science. I really would have fit in much better in an MPP program, but by the time I realized this, I was too deep into law school to leave (and frankly had already finished the amount of academic work that an MPP would have required). If I could go back and do it again, I would have pursued a policy degree and I think I would have been much happier. I would have likely still ended up back at my airline, but I would have had less debt and less stress from law school.

If you can't imagine yourself doing anything but practicing law for the rest of your life, don't go to law school. Don't do what others expect, especially with this, because the law is a harsh mistress. The amount of stress that you will have to put yourself through is not worth being anything less than 110% dedicated to the law.

Am I glad I have my JD now that I've had some time between me and law school? Yeah, I'm glad I accomplished something incredibly challenging, and I'm glad I stuck with it to the end after I put so much time into the degree before I got recalled. But if I could do it again, I'd tell my younger self to take the other path I was considering when I furloughed, and do a MPP program.

Also, don't listen to anybody here that doesn't have a law degree. I've found that pilots have an idealized concept of what it's like to be an attorney, and to get through law school, and don't really understand the realities of what real academic work entails. Frankly, I didn't either, and the slap in the face during that first semester was extreme.

Also, feel free to PM me regarding this issue if you'd like.
 
With all due respect to @typhoonpilot, that's advice that people give all the time, and it's also the worst advice. "What you love" can quickly become what you hate after it's a job rather than a hobby.

Decisions about what to do for a living should be based on more rational measures rather than emotional ones. Look at what an aviation career is likely to be for you, and make a decision based on that. What that means is putting it all down in a spreadsheet and seeing if it is realistic to live the lifestyle that you'll have to live to be a pilot, and if so, do you think it's worth it? While it's not law school level debt, the level of debt you'll take on to become a professional pilot is significant, and unlike the jobs you'll get out of law school, the jobs you'll have the first few years of your flying career aren't going to pay $50k+. They're going to pay $20k. So while you'll take on less debt at the beginning, you could be paying it off for a much longer period of time, nonetheless.

You also need to remember that having a law degree doesn't mean you need to necessarily practice law. JDs open a whole hell of a lot of doors. Frankly, people are impressed by someone who holds a JD. A large percentage of the people I dealt with in airline management went to law school, even though don't practice law. That degree opened doors for them in management that another degree, such as an MBA (which are now becoming a dime a dozen), wouldn't have. So if you just want to be involved in aviation, and not necessarily in the cockpit, then a JD might be a great way to open doors for you there.

P.S. Don't poo poo that undergrad degree, either. A degree in Political Science is a lot more valuable than a degree in Professional Aeronautics.
 
Beech_Flyer said:
Am I certifiably insane to forego a potentially far more lucrative career in law (bearing in mind the crippling debt burden of $250,000) for a line of work that could be potentially derailed by anything from an oil price spike to arbitrary corporate 'rightsizing'?
Click to expand...

Caveat upfront: not a lawyer here....

The legal profession has changed dramatically. The unemployment rates out of law school are insanely high, and starting salaries for junior associates aren't much different than the regionals (with no mandated rest period). Much of the low-level work that large firms could bill for is being automated or off-shored. As a result, the whole pyramid of the partnership is collapsing.

My advice: don't go to law school if it's something you don't genuinely want to do.

Besides airplanes and taking the LSAT, what else interests you?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
With all due respect to @typhoonpilot, that's advice that people give all the time, and it's also the worst advice. "What you love" can quickly become what you hate after it's a job rather than a hobby.
Click to expand...


You and I not agreeing? Now there's a surprise. ;)

I honestly believe that if you truly love flying and devote your life to it then the money will come eventually. Same holds true for many professions and/or lines of work.

With all due respect to ATN, one must see the forest through the trees to really enjoy anything in life. You can always be miserable while doing anything, it's a choice. I choose to be happy about what I do for a living. I choose to be enthusiastic about it. That attitude seems to have worked out for me and a lot of others like me.

I remember a kid at SAC back in the early 90s lamenting how difficult it was to get a start flying professionally. I pretty much gave him the same talk. He listened and went on to work for Skywest for 13 years, becoming the assistant chief pilot and now is a B777 captain at Emirates.

A large part of success in aviation is also how flexible one is when making moves. You can not be tied down to one place and expect to have good career advancement. The guy who says, "I'm not leaving (fill in the blank place)" generally has a very limited number of options for progression. While the guy willing to move halfway around the world can make great strides. There is probably a nice middle ground in there that works for the majority.

So another point to ponder for the OP is how willing he is to move to advance in his career. If he can't leave (fill in the blank place) due to wife, family, dog, etc then maybe he's better off sticking with a 9-5 or 8-6 office job.


Typhoonpilot
 
typhoonpilot said:
You and I not agreeing? Now there's a surprise. ;)
Click to expand...

True dat. :)

I honestly believe that if you truly love flying and devote your life to it then the money will come eventually.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people have turned out very disappointed who believed the same thing. There's more luck to it than anything. Sure, networking plays a big role, which is why this site is important for the people who are "all in" on aviation, but those who don't believe that luck plays a big factor are kidding themselves.
 
typhoonpilot said:
You and I not agreeing? Now there's a surprise. ;)

I honestly believe that if you truly love flying and devote your life to it then the money will come eventually. Same holds true for many professions and/or lines of work.

With all due respect to ATN, one must see the forest through the trees to really enjoy anything in life. You can always be miserable while doing anything, it's a choice. I choose to be happy about what I do for a living. I choose to be enthusiastic about it. That attitude seems to have worked out for me and a lot of others like me.

I remember a kid at SAC back in the early 90s lamenting how difficult it was to get a start flying professionally. I pretty much gave him the same talk. He listened and went on to work for Skywest for 13 years, becoming the assistant chief pilot and now is a B777 captain at Emirates.

A large part of success in aviation is also how flexible one is when making moves. You can not be tied down to one place and expect to have good career advancement. The guy who says, "I'm not leaving (fill in the blank place)" generally has a very limited number of options for progression. While the guy willing to move halfway around the world can make great strides. There is probably a nice middle ground in there that works for the majority.

So another point to ponder for the OP is how willing he is to move to advance in his career. If he can't leave (fill in the blank place) due to wife, family, dog, etc then maybe he's better off sticking with a 9-5 or 8-6 office job.


Typhoonpilot
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Agree 1000% on the willing to move part but with a caveat. It only works if you're single, or if in a relationship your partner is just as adventerous. Kids are a whole nudder deck of cards. If I had my way, I would be sitting in Singapore right now with my kids enjoying that life experience. However, I am not going to subject my wife to that, she would hate it and you know the saying....

Starting out and young :GET TO THE CHOPPA: somewhat established and have a family, it gets dicey, those oppurtunities might not fit the entire family thus negating the net positive career movement.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
With all due respect to @typhoonpilot,

You also need to remember that having a law degree doesn't mean you need to necessarily practice law. JDs open a whole hell of a lot of doors. Frankly, people are impressed by someone who holds a JD. A large percentage of the people I dealt with in airline management went to law school, even though don't practice law. That degree opened doors for them in management that another degree, such as an MBA (which are now becoming a dime a dozen), wouldn't have. So if you just want to be involved in aviation, and not necessarily in the cockpit, then a JD might be a great way to open doors for you there.
Click to expand...
My uncle was an example of that. University of Michigan law degree, but never practiced. He worked for one of the big three automakers in labor negotiations.
 
To the OP: have you looked at the placement rates and average starting salary statistics for the school's you are considering?

Here are a few observations:
> New associates who are paid high starting salaries attended top tier (I.e., top 15) schools. They work 80 - 100 hours/week.
> Graduates of lesser schools, particularly those ranked 50 and lower, will be paid much, much less than the top tier graduates. Think 50% less or worse.
> Attorneys who hang out their own shingle are a dime a dozen, and most make only a modest living. Remember, they eat what they kill, and one has to prepare a huge number of wills to earn $100,00K.
> You don't have to be a great attorney or attend the best law school in order to practice civil liability law. Some lawyers have made millions suing companies. John Edwards comes to mind . . .
> It's often a job that occupies your time and your mind, even when you are not in the office. Think working lots of hours at home in the evenings and on weekends.

Be sure you know the placement rates and average salary figures before you pull the trigger.
 
Take a chunk of that JD money and learn to fly helicopters. Since you have an airplane PPL, get your airplane IR first, then do a CPL helicopter when you have the time and follow that with the IR add-on.

In 3-4 years, once you get somewhere on a 7/7, you can spend your time off hitch (and the leftover money) getting a graduate degree or doing whatever you like.


Also, as it's been mentioned above, law school employment data is/has been skewed. Last I heard, there was a growing group of unemployed grads trying to get class-action status becaue they felt a fraud had been committed. This is 3 year info, maybe @jtrain609 can elaborate on this.
 
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Most of the pretty smart kids I grew up with who studied (insert liberal arts degree) ended up going to law school. I doubt many had a passion for law, but they were facing the simple fact that their undergrad degree wasn't worth much yet they still wanted that 6-figure salary somehow. Most just endure the career and it's a means to an end.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I think a lot of people have turned out very disappointed who believed the same thing. There's more luck to it than anything. Sure, networking plays a big role, which is why this site is important for the people who are "all in" on aviation, but those who don't believe that luck plays a big factor are kidding themselves.
Click to expand...


Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity :)


TP
 
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