Crossing restrictions...

Clocks

Clocks

Well-Known Member
"Jetlink 1234 cross ABC at maintain 11,000"

Same or next controller prior to reaching ABC

"Jetlink 1234 descend maintain 8,000"

Do you still need to hit ABC at 11,000 or not? I've heard both answers (and the third answer "I'd just ask") from 6 month captains and from 10 year captains, and I'm starting to believe there is no right answer. I looked through the AIM online, nothing addresses this specifically.

So...is there a right answer?
 
You don't need to be at 11,000 at ABC. The clearance was superceded by the second controller. If he wanted you at 11,000 at ABC he would say something like "Descend maintain 8000, cross ABC at 11,000" or some combination of that.
 
Clocks said:
"Jetlink 1234 cross ABC at maintain 11,000"

Same or next controller prior to reaching ABC

"Jetlink 1234 descend maintain 8,000"

Do you still need to hit ABC at 11,000 or not? I've heard both answers (and the third answer "I'd just ask") from 6 month captains and from 10 year captains, and I'm starting to believe there is no right answer. I looked through the AIM online, nothing addresses this specifically.

So...is there a right answer?
Click to expand...

Great question!!

FWIW, I'd just ask what the controller wants. Then it's on tape. If a DAB is generated, they'll pull the tapes. It's your CYA.

As a former ASAP rep, "implied" clearances caused me more work than I needed. Ask the controller what they mean. Save the paperwork for a serious boo-boo.
 
"Do you still need to hit ABC at 11,000 or not?"

No, the second clearance negates the first. They only place I'd question it is if the 11K was on the arrival as a mandatory altitude.
 
I ALWAYS confirm if they still want us at the previous restriction or not. Half the time I ask they say "Um, yeah" like I was supposed to know. 5 seconds taken to ask a question could save an hours worth of ASAP paperwork, and possibly the controllers career as well as lives.
 
As some have said here, descend to 8000' is your new clearance. The 11000' restriction was negated by the new clearance.
 
:yeahthat:

The original crossing restriction was probably because of a some kind of letter of agreement that states the first controller (call him "A") would hand off all aircraft to the second controller ("B") with that crossing restriction. In day-to-day operation this allows "B" to handle other traffic with the assurance that there won't be a conflict since he knows where your aircraft (and all the other aircraft coming from your direction) will be without having to call up "A" on the land line every time. When you were handed off from "A" to "B", it is a given that "B" knows whether or not he needs you to still make the crossing restriction or not because he is the reason the restriction is given in the first place. "B" will give you altitude assignments based on what is actually happening in his sector, while the crossing restriction was given by "A" because of what might be happening in sector "B".

Personally I don't have a problem with asking for clarification if I'm unsure about what I'm expected to do. That said, once I realize the primary reason for things like crossing restrictions, and understand that a new altitude assignment automatically negates any previous instructions, there will be fewer and fewer occasions where I feel unsure about what is expected.

Good question.



edit to add: by the way, all of the stuff I posted is purely MOO (My Opinion Only) based on what I've seen and heard over the years. I'll post something over in the ATC forum and see if I can get some actual controllers to chime in as well.
 
I found this in the AIM, paragraph 4-4-9... (I added the emphasis)

g. The guiding principle is that the last ATC
clearance has precedence over the previous ATC
clearance. When the route or altitude in a previously
issued clearance is amended, the controller will
restate applicable altitude restrictions. If altitude to
maintain is changed or restated, whether prior to
departure or while airborne, and previously issued
altitude restrictions are omitted, those altitude
restrictions are canceled, including departure proce-
dures and STAR altitude restrictions.
Click to expand...
 
Another way to look at it is are you going to stop at 11,000? Controller A told you to maintain 11,000, didn't he? Even if the 11,000 was a mandatory altitude on an arrival, you were not told to descend to 8,000 via the ABCDE arrival so you still would not be required to cross at 11,000.
 
:)
calcapt said:
As some have said here, descend to 8000' is your new clearance. The 11000' restriction was negated by the new clearance.
Click to expand...
CalCapt sure glad to see you back here. :) Us new Captains need all the perspective we can get.

. . . and yes the first alt restriction is deleted with the second controller. I also agree with verifying anything of which you are not sure. If I think I have one clearance and I confirm with my FO and he is in conflict, I automatically becomne unsure and get a clarification. What's the worst that can happen, the controller can get a little pissy for a second? Just be super nice and they'll generally get over it:bandit:
 
I'm a bit late to the party but all the info posted is correct. The second clearance cancels the first. SteveC hit the nail on the head, the restriction is 99% of the time for a letter of agreement compliance.

If you're not sure ask ATC ...
 
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