CRJ/ERJ Type

[sorrygottarunway]

The more people who shell out the cash for an RJ type rating, the more airlines may want to make that the quid pro quo. It just doesn't make any sense to anyway. The Airline who hires you should pay for this.
On the flip side, I would totally take an RJ systems class that a school may offer, (Not some 10,000 dollar thing) just so that I would be more confident in my new hire class at an airline. But to pay 30 grand for a type is detremental to the profession (IMO) and at the very least a financial mistake. How does that saying go? A fool and his money......

I can't say that I received any EMB/CRJ systems/procedure questions during my regional interview, nor did they look for any experience in dealing with these types. I don't honestly think it would have helped me get the job any faster either. Although, the regional I fly for doesn't deal with the many problems that jets create so maybe my point doesn't matter...

 

[derg]

Hey bro! It's about time! How's Michelle doing? Tell her to drop by and say hello every once in a while!

This isn't targeted at you, but the thread as a whole:

For the amount that it might help, it certainly doesn't warrant spending $30,000 because $X (amt spent on training) + $30K is going to equal a massive amount of debt to pay off at a low hourly rate and you'll be married to the airline and you can't afford probationary pay anywhere else if you decide to move on.

The hilarioius part is that the actual cost of getting a type rating is probably less than four or five thousand dollars if that. But the market price of $30,000 is there because people are lining up because they think it'll get them a significant edge.

Let's run the numbers:

Person A purchases a type rating for $30G's. He gets hired two months before the guy without a type rating. Say he does it on a 10 year loan. He'll have paid a grand total (assuming 11.29 APR as per their site) of almost $50,000 (someone correct my math if I'm wrong).

But if he's got $30,000 and sinks it into a CRJ/ERJ type, he's got $0 and a type rating backed by zero experience or time-in-type. A type rating which he'd get for free after a few years anyway.

If he takes that $30,000 purchases a decent mutual fund and averages 12% for 10 years, he'd have over $90,000. At that point, ten years later, his friend who got the type is bragging about finally having paid his loan off whereas the guy who chose to save it is making a 50% down-payment on a house or purchasing a Cessna 310 with cash.

So the question is would you rather have $90K in ten years, $0 by going debt free or having spent $50,000 for a $30,000 type rating you actually don't need?

 

[Malko]

30k
10yrs
11.29
-----------
$20,183.00 interest
$418.19 monthly pmts

 

[CRoper]

Another thing to think about...

Let's say you did get a type in the RJ, then 6months, a year, or even two years later you go interview at a regional. Can you imagine the questions you would get? I guess if you could answer all of them you would look pretty good, but what are the chances of that when the guys interviewing you fly the plane everyday?

P.S. Doug, thanks for the welcome. I won't post in here, but I will put an update in the announcement section one of these days (I don't want to detract from the thread.) I'll also see if I can talk the wife into dropping in. Thanks again.

 

[wheelsup]

Buying the type really depends on your situation. For me, I spent almost 2 years instructing. Buying the type would have shaved 1.5 years off my instructing days. Quite significant when you think I would be making CA pay 1.5 years earlier, so $60k/year x 1.5 years = $90k. However, that's in a perfect world. Furlough, strike, AOG, etc. changes everything. You're making a large bet that buying the type will pay off. It's great if it does.

Doug's example of investing in a mutual fund holds true *IF* you could pay $30k in CASH for the type. If that's the case, yeah, plop $30k down in a retirement account when you're 20 and even if you never add to it again, you can retire with $1.3mil+ with 10% return. Then you can do whatever you want with your life because your retirement is set. Instructing another 12 months wouldn't matter.

But taking the loan for 11.29% APR, buying a mutual find with a hopeful 12% return just doesn't make sense, IMO. That $30k would be worth around $33,372.00 in 10 years.

In my class there was a guy that bought the type. 400TT, 20 multi. He sailed through training, and OE. Real smart guy - was some sort of nuclear propulsionist (sp?) on a Navy sub. Used the GI bill/VA benefit stuff to pay most of the type and accerlerate his career. There was also a guy who was one of the higher-up instructors at RAA, the company paid for his type. Real nice guy.

The type will help you get to the regional faster, and it depends on your situation how much faster. At MAPD, we had a girl come in fresh out of ATP, and do the PACE program.

30 days for private
90 days for instrument-MEI
120 days for MAPD PACE
= 8-9 months zero to airline job
AND ~$45k-$50k in debt

Why she didn't stay and instruct at ATP I don't know. That probably would have been the best bet.

 

[ananoman]

not to mention thats a type the airline cant use anyway. It'll get them out of doing the new FAA SIC type paperwork, but when it comes time to upgrade you have to do the type-rating all over again anyway. That 30k you plopped down was for Commercial Pilot/CL65, not Airline Transport Pilot/CL65. The fact you were typed as a commercial pilot at that point will make absolutely no difference.

I don't think people should by buying RJ type ratings, but this is untrue. It does not matter what level of certificate you hold when you get a type rating, they are all the same. If you want a type, you have to fly to the ATP PTS. So, even if you have a private with an instrument rating and get your RJ Type, it is the same type you would get when you have an ATP. In fact, when you finally get your ATP, it will still be listed on your pilot certificate, and there will be no mention of the fact that you got the type as a private pilot.

What you will get on your certificate if you do not have a prior type rating and/or significant time in an aircraft that requires a type is a limitation on your certificate that will read "Pilot in Command Limitation CL65". Unless you do part of your checkride in the airplane. Now, you can get this removed by doing 25 hours in the 'seat normally occupied by the pilot in command, under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command'. Which means they have to sign your log book and you have to fill out another 8710 and go see the nice people at your local FSDO.

It is true that you still have to complete the airlines ground and sim training anyway. No airline is going to just put you in the right or left seat without doing all the training they normally put their employees through.

 

[ananoman]

Why are the types for the CRJ and ERJ so FREAKING EXPENSIVE!!!! Schools charge 20-30K for them. A B-737 can run you around 5-7K!

There is a very good reason for this. A new CRJ or ERJ sim cost several million dollars, and the companies that have them want a good return on their investment.

The 737 has been around for along time and there are a lot of older sims floating around out there. If a school can get its hands on an old level C sim, even one with steam gauges, they can start giving 737 type ratings. I am not sure if any of the sims for the 737-200 are level C or not, I bet a few are. Since they have been retiring these airplanes for a long time, demand for the sim goes down, and why not lower the price to keep some business coming in? And the type you get looks no different on your pilot certificate than if you paid 5x as much in a newer EFIS sim.

 

[kellwolf]

IMO, type = waste of money. I didn't get any questions on TP/CRJ/ERJ systems in my interview, and the airline has done a pretty good job of giving me (yeah GIVING me) the tools I need to learn the systems on the aircraft. Right now I'm cramming my brain full of stuff for my CRJ oral tomorrow. I'm most condifent that I can pass it, unless the check airman goes digging to some really fine pointed systems details.

We do have one guy in our class that has a CRJ type, but guess what? He's still in line with all the rest of us, he still has to do all this training over again, and he still has to do all 10 sim sessions. Did it help him get the job? I don't know, but let's just say that most of our class are instructors, most of which haven't flown anything bigger than a Seminole or Baron at the largest.

As far as a "systems" or "FMS" class, those, to me, are a total rip off. Wanna learn the CRJ systems? Buy a book on them. They're out there if you know where to look. As far as the FMS goes, I'd never touched the damn thing, and I was pretty confident with it after the 6 days of training, 2 hours a day, they gave us. Airline training departments are designed to give you the skills you need to operate their aircraft assuming you've never touched it or in some cases anything similar.

Now, that being said, it's totally possible that once I get out on the line I could be totally lost. But, as far as systems knowledge and FMS, if I had spent money on a training program for those, I'd be really disappointed right now.

 

[wheelsup]

But, as far as systems knowledge and FMS, if I had spent money on a training program for those, I'd be really disappointed right now.

Keep in mind the idea behind buying the type isn't to be "more prepared" during indoc/systems - it's to show an employer you can pass a training program including sim rides and consequently get on at a lot lower TT than your peers. 30% of my class washed out. That's quite an expense. Hiring "known quantities" are more of a sure thing IMO, which is why I can see why the airlines dig this sort of stuff.

These guys that buy the types spend the $$ to show perspective employers they can pass even with low time (like total time has anything to do with passing ground and sim training... ) and to shortcut their way from my understanding.

One of the scariest things at MAPD is guys would leave with ZERO actual, never flown around TStorms, gusty winds, etc. They may be able to pass ground/sim no problem, but their low time will show on OE and on the line. Totally different than a simulator.

 

[meritflyer]

Before anyone is quick to judge a pilot on why they may have paid for their type rating, you need to ask them why. There may have been circumstances that made that specific person need to get a flying job fast for any odd reason. I have a friend (no CFI but IGI and AGI) who got his type at CAE because he found out he was having a baby and needed a job fast for money but mainly health benefits for him, his wife, and new baby. His parents helped him out and got him the type. He got picked up be American Eagle with relatively low time.

So before you chuck the first stone at the guy with the type, you may need to listen to his story before you nail him to the cross.

 

[derg]

Don't care. It's bad for the profession. End of story.

 

[Kingairer]

Why the hell would someone be dumb enough to PAY for something like a type when the company will buy it for you. Go play in a casino or something if youve got 30K burning a hole in your pocket.

 

[casey]

There may have been circumstances that made that specific person need to get a flying job fast for any odd reason. I have a friend (no CFI but IGI and AGI) who got his type at CAE because he found out he was having a baby and needed a job fast for money but mainly health benefits for him, his wife, and new baby.

spend 30k to *hopefully* get to commute to sit reserve and be gone 20+ days a month, excellent choice to support the wife/new baby. needing health benefits is a rationalization, there are plenty of easier, cheaper ways of aquiring them.

i'd have more respect for someone that just straight up said "I bought the type because i wanted to" than someone trying to rationalize it to me. just imho, of course.

 

[Bigey]

Before anyone is quick to judge a pilot on why they may have paid for their type rating, you need to ask them why. There may have been circumstances that made that specific person need to get a flying job fast for any odd reason. I have a friend (no CFI but IGI and AGI) who got his type at CAE because he found out he was having a baby and needed a job fast for money but mainly health benefits for him, his wife, and new baby. His parents helped him out and got him the type. He got picked up be American Eagle with relatively low time.

So before you chuck the first stone at the guy with the type, you may need to listen to his story before you nail him to the cross.

I dont know..money fast - airlines? Something's not adding up..:insane:

 

[kellwolf]

Gotta go with Kingairer on this one. I feel for the guy. My wife and I had our son when NEITHER of us was employed and had to rely on the oh-so-reliable state of MS for Medicaid right in the middle of when they were doing budget cutbacks. I was finishing up flight training (with already substantial student loans holding me down). Spending another $30K on a type for an $18K a year job that MIGHT materialize doesn't sound all the smart to me. Take that same $30K and spend it on health care, medicine, diapers, baby food, etc. Or spend the money and finish up the CFIs fast and still have about $20-25K left over for those. You still have the job plus the cash needed for the necessary expenses.

Doug's right. To me, this does nothing but hurt the industry. Get enough of these guys buying types, and suddenly it's a cost savings for the regionals. Might get an interview with 1000/200 (or less), but you have to have the type before you start class. Imagine if all the regionals had the SWA style hiring.

 

[SUSPilot]

Buying the type would be a waste of money. In some ways I think you are setting yourself up for a harder time in the interview. During my interview with my airline I was asked questions about a Duchess(the twin I instructed in) when they did the systems portion of the interview. Guess which airplane they probably would have asked about if my certificate would have said EMB-145 on it. Now who do you think has a better understanding of the EMB systems, you the guy that paid $30,000 for some two week crash course on the airplane, or a flight manager and the director of training who both have THOUSANDS of hours in the type. hell in my limited experience of being on line for a month and a half, I could probably ask you questions on the airplane you would not know the answer to, especially since you have never flown it.

Even the systems classes(to get a head start on what you will be flying at the airlines) seem like a waste to me. When it all comes down to it. 121 Ground school isn't all that difficult, it is just a lot of work and studying. I had never flown anything larger than a Navajo, and my only experience with a turbine airplane was 2.5 hours in a Pilatus PC-7 doing an IPC for someone, and I had no trouble with training. I just studied.

Just relax, enjoy being an instructor, focus on building time, and then let your future employer pay for your training (which they will have to do whether you take the class or not) instead of looking for a short cut to a job that will pay less in your first year than you will pay for that class. Hell even if you do get in earlier it may not lead to a faster upgrade. There were people in my newhire class that did a program like this and had just under 300 hours. Even though they may possibly have the seniority to hold captain sooner, They will not see the left seat for at least 3 years even if they flew the maximum 1000 hours a year as our company's insurance requires 3200 hours minimum to put in a standing bid for jet captain.

 

[kellwolf]

You see a lot of senior FOs here that can't upgrade yet b/c they got hired with 200 hours. You need at least 3000 hours to bid for captain (that's after the 500 hour break you get for flying that many with the company). Granted, once they DO have the hours they'll probably skip reserve altogether, but that's a lot of rush for a lot of nothing. All these academies preach how important the seniority number is for upgrading, but they never say anything about the fact that you still need a ton of hours in order to take advantage of that seniority. To me, that's just another aspect of the fuzzy marketing.