CRJ-900 at Delta (Connection)?

[BobDDuck]

We have a blended rate for the -200 and -700. Also, it is based on % of aircraft on property. Even though the -700 is arguably a better airplane (and I am not talking about number of seats but rather the FADEC, the better temp control and the fact that it has slats so your approach speed isn't so damn fast), nobody seems to care too much which type they are flying as the pay is the same.

 

[viper548]

I think the blended rate is a good idea

 

[B767Driver]

It's time for pilots at all airlines to take action to blur the lines between what has historically been known as "regional and major" airlines. It's time to level the playing field or our profession is toast. "Regional" pilots need to burn down the house to get pay rates up. "Major" pilots need to do the same to protect theirs. We are all flying sophisticated machines in a complex environment. Too many professional pilots are doing this job as a "hobby". A "regional" jet first officer should earn a minimum of $50k. This can happen...but first we have to decide whether we are professional airline pilots or enthusiast/hobbyists. I want to work with professional airline pilots. I do not want to work with an enthusiast working for part time pay. We simply have too much responsibility to work for low pay. And if the economics don't support our wage request...well then...once again...we are engaged in a hobby...not a profession.

Professional pilots need to send a message that we will be compensated appropriately. Airlines must find a way to cover this expense or go out of business. Establishing revenues to cover expenses is a good start. If ticket prices go up and fewer people travel...that's fine with me. I know this means fewer jobs...that's fine with me too. If we want to fix this broken mess of an industry that we have...pilots need to stop undercutting each other...and draw a line in the sand.

Do you think it's likely to happen? I'm not holding my breath.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Do you think it's likely to happen?"

With people willing pay big bucks to do direct entry progams just to fly the shiny jet ASAP, I kinda don't think so.

 

[mrivc211]

I'm right there with you brother. Organized labor is falling apart in this country. We need to protect what our brother and sister pilots worked so hard for for all these 100 years of flying. Corporations are bringing out their big guns, and the pilots of today are running away with their tails between their legs.

Oh but we can't operate with those kind of wages anymore. Boohoo. Bullshi*t. Yes you can! And yes you will! Pilots should refuse to fly. Have a nationwide walk-out, bring this crap to a stand still then see who is willing to pay properly. And if you think this is far fetched your not playing hard ball and managements are. Oh but the president will forbid this. Who's side do you think G W. is on? Labor? Give me a freaking break. Big business owns the White House.

I don't care what airline you work for, ALL MGMT at EVERY airline is now seeing that bkrptcy is the way to bring the pilots and workers wages down. Why is it so hard to see that?

 

[Bluto]

Thank You!!!!

But I do believe that 70-90 seat jets should be flown by mainline pilots.
And if not that then they should be flown pilots at airline regional afflitates.
Who are well compensated,respected in the industry and treated fairly by managment.
Same type rating be damned.
If they have more seats the pilots at that level should be compensated as such.

-Matthew

AMEN!

Matthew, thank you for stating what I sincerely hope is the obvious, correct position on this matter! We need many more newhires at the regionals with your attitude.

As indicated by the recent pay vote at SkyWest, SkyWChris's attitude is not in tune with the majority of SkyWest pilots.

Chris, I'm glad you enjoy working at SkyWest, I do too, but where do you propose to draw the line? When does our compensation become unreasonable for the size of aircraft or number of passengers we fly? I suggest that we never should have operated a single 70 flight for 50-seat rates. Our current rates for 70-seaters are near the bottom of the industry. How far below the lowest paid RJ pilots do we have to go before our potential 90-seat rates will upset you? Most of your peers are upset about them already, according to the vote.

Growth is wonderful. It's necessary, but we don't need to undercut everyone else and (more importantly) sell ourselves short to get it. SkyWest was competetive and grew like a weed when we were the best compensated before, they can do it again. With many pilots afraid of what might happen if we asked for reasonable pay rates, though, SGU knows they don't have to.

Bottom line: SkyWest makes more money for operating 70-seaters, so should the pilots that fly them.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Well Bluto I'm glad you enjoyed my post.
But I used be just like those young,eager,hungry and thirsty pilots. Wanting,waiting and itching to just get a chance to pilot an RJ right seat.
I thumbed through flying magazines saw all the ads and got starry eyed dreaming of the day I'd be an airline pilot!
Becoming a member of this website taught me different however.
Taught me that there is more to being a pilot then wearing a fancy uniform
and flying a jet at mach .80 at FL410.
Hopefully more future pilots will find this pro-pilot site and learn as I have and the next generation of pilots can then work with current gen pilots to effect change in the industry from the inside out!

-Matthew

 

[aviategw]

But I used be just like those young,eager,hungry and thirsty pilots. Wanting,waiting and itching to just get a chance to pilot an RJ right seat.
I thumbed through flying magazines saw all the ads and got starry eyed dreaming of the day I'd be an airline pilot!
Becoming a member of this website taught me different however.


-Matthew

Well, let's look at this logically from the point of the yet to be employed airline pilot. I'm fighting well below minimum wage and extremely long hours, most of them unpaid, to build hours as a CFI. I haven't had two days in a row off since last November. I have to plan two months in advance whenever I need to buy a new pair of shoes, from WAL-MART. One of my coworkers literally hasn't had breakfast in over a week because he can't afford it. We're doing this because we want to be airline pilots.
Frankly, most of the suggestions of the already employed airline pilots only put our goal farther away. Yes, higher ticket prices would mean fewer passengers. Would that mean higher wages for the average pilot working the line? Not very likely. Any extra profit percentage would be absorbed by the company and given as 'proof' (lots of sarcasm here) that management was successful. Higher ticket prices would definately mean that more pilots would be required. Higher ticket prices would open the door for yet another Low Cost Carrier to undercut the market and yet again glut the supply of available seats for passengers, and, ironically, pilots. Does this make sense to anyone?
Are wannabes like myself the reason for the decline in QOL for pilots in the airline industry? YES. Is there a damn thing we can do about it? NO. I've slogged through a lot of S**T in the name of 'paying my dues', and I really resent already employed folks pointing their finger at me as the sole cause of their troubles. With the exception of the people who honorably chose to serve in the military as aviators, I'm following the same career path as quite a few line pilots who are now currently employed, and, posting on this board.

Someone, please make a valid suggestion as to how to fix this mess. Barring that, I'll be taking donations to help pay my car payment, which I can't afford to put gas in, and to help my coworker get some breakfast...

 

[SteveC]

I'll give you my (very unpopular) take on the situation.

There isn't a dang thing that pilots can do about it.

Here is what will happen:
Pilot wages will continue to fall since there is still a supply of pilots willing to do the work at a wage level less than, or equal to, the low end of wages currently being paid. Eventually the bar will be so low, wages and QOL will become so bad, that more and more pilots will say "enough", and leave the profession to do something more financially fulfilling. Then, and only then, will the airlines have to begin raising wages and benefits to attract the people that they need to fill their requirements.

The only thing, THE ONLY THING, that pilots can do to speed up the inexorable race to the bottom is to educate each other that the race is happening and why. The sooner that pilots and future pilots as a whole group start working to end the slide by voting with their feet and walking away, the sooner the slide will stop. You can't do it as an individual pilot since some one else will fill your shoes in a heartbeat. You can't do it as one airline's pilot union since another upstart airline will take your work away or management will outsource it. It will only happen when enough people at every level and income leave the profession to tighten up the labor market.

I can see the start of it happening now. Tons of mainline pilots took early retirements in the last year, and not because they wanted to retire. Plenty of other mainline pilots are looking for alternate jobs and would jump at a chance to leave an industry that is going sour and has cut their income by 1/3 or more (with more cuts coming). Even more starry-eyed regional pilots are becoming disillusioned and deciding that real estate sales doesn't look nearly as bad as it used to. More young people are getting the word and having second thoughts about the piloting profession as a career. It's starting to happen, but too slowly.

I'll give you my honest opinion - in spite of the signs that I mention above, it's going to keep getting worse. The reason (beyond the economic forces which no one wants to hear about because they can't control them) is that pilots love to do what they do. Whenever people as a group love to do something they will be willing to do it for less money than something that they don't enjoy. It's as obvious as the nose on your face that wages will be driven to reflect that fact. Here's a question for everyone reading this: would we be willing to fly an airplane for less money than whatever job we are doing now? Presuming that the answer is yes, decide what job(s) you would do for less money than flying. When we (as a group) reach that point we will know what our *value* is as pilots. If we are willing to be an airline pilot for less money than we could make as an engineer, than pilot wages will be less than an engineers. If we love piloting so much that we would be willing to do it for less money than a factory worker makes, we will be paid less than factory workers. Why would the management of an airline ever offer us more money than we are willing to work for???

Now don't go thinking that I'm giving a holier-than-thou speech here. I'm a part of the problem as much as anyone else. I'm a mid-life career changer that accepted a job paying 1/2 as much as I used to make just so I could fly charter aircraft. And I'm loving every minute of it. But I've got my eyes wide open, and can see where I'll be in the next few years and I have decided that I will be able to maintain what I consider to be a decent standard of living while doing something I enjoy. I come home every night happy, and that is worth something to me. Bottom line is that I am enough of a realist to know that I have sacrificed some earning potential for some happiness.

And that is the reason for my post. So that everyone will realize that the pay and quality of life of this profession is heading down, and will continue to head down until it reaches an equilibrium; pilots willing to do something that they love versus how low a pay are they willing to accept to do it.

No blame, no finger pointing, just real life catching up to what used to be a protected profession.

So aviategw please don't resent that I think that you are part of the problem, because I know that I am part of the problem also. Don't look for a magic solution from me because there isn't one. And don't expect a donation to your car payment fund because each of us has to decide for ourselves how much income we are willing to give up to do something we want to do.

 

[aviategw]

SteveC,


Excellent post. Very well articulated. I agree with you 100%.

I've learned to dramatically decrease my expectations with regard to this career. I LOVE the flying. The rest, well, if I can make it through CFI life, I can make it through FO life. If I can make it through FO life, I'll be able to make it through captain life.

I was being very satirical when I asked for a fix to this mess. There is NO simple solution. The situation doesn't warrant simply raising ticket prices, or, simply raising the minimum number of hours required to interview for that first magical, low paying, FO position. To think that either would fix the QOL issues now being faced is naive and simple minded.

I never really expected to get a donation for my car payment, either.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

All of us, regional drivers down to CFIs, hold the dream of a mainline job with mainline pay and mainline benefits.

Once again, crazy thing to say - but some of us lowly CFI's really love what we're doing!

There are some people that love this job!!!

I'll tell you what I'm getting tired of. I'm getting tired of people implying that if you love flying, and you don't want to do anything else, then you must be contributing to the demise of the industry.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I love this job. Would I like to fly jets one day? Sure, it would be cool. Am I going to change career fields to force the wages up in aviation?

You're crazy if you think I would.

Some of you may be willing to change career fields before you work for less. I'll tell you, I'd rather fly.

And that is the reason for my post. So that everyone will realize that the pay and quality of life of this profession is heading down, and will continue to head down until it reaches an equilibrium; pilots willing to do something that they love versus how low a pay are they willing to accept to do it.

Steve C, I think we almost see it the same way.

Some people can suck it up through the rough times, and some people can't.

 

[SteveC]

Once again, crazy thing to say - but some of us lowly CFI's really love what we're doing!

Some of us lowly 135 pukes do too!

I'll tell you what I'm getting tired of. I'm getting tired of people implying that if you love flying, and you don't want to do anything else, then you must be contributing to the demise of the industry.

Don't take it personally. I know that you're not doing it intentionally.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I love this job. Would I like to fly jets one day? Sure, it would be cool.

It's funny, but I really enjoy turoboprops and piston twins. I love the view, I love the machines, and I love having just a few customers every trip. There are two things that sound good about flying jets: get away from bad weather easier; better pay. Other than that I think I'd be perfectly happy being a King Air jockey for my career.

Am I going to change career fields to force the wages up in aviation?

You're crazy if you think I would.

He he he. I changed careers to help bring wages down in aviation! (Not really. At least it's not why I changed careers, but I'm a realist enough to know that flying charter for these kind of wages sure isn't helping the situation any. )

Some of you may be willing to change career fields before you work for less. I'll tell you, I'd rather fly.

Maybe if enough of them *other* people would get out of this profession, those of us that stay could make a little more money.

Steve C, I think we almost see it the same way.

I'm pretty sure that we do. The differences are in semantics only.

Some people can suck it up through the rough times, and some people can't.

Dang straight. And the ones that I want to fly with are the ones that do it with a positive attitude.

What is really funny is that I don't see what I am going through as the *rough times*. As much as I may sound like a gloom and doom'er here when talking about the industry, I really, really enjoy what I do for a living. I knew coming in what the downsides were, made the conscious choice that it was worth it to me, and because of all that I am happier than I have ever been in my career. Low pay, uncertain hours, few bennies? Those things matter, but I'm having a blast in spite of those things. I knew coming into this that those problems were part of the deal. I do not bitch about low pay (out loud), I happily accept those middle of the night freight trips and gladly take overnights away from my family. I will work hard to try to make this a better profession, both for myself and for those that follow, but I refuse to be miserable and make those around me miserable as well. Sounds like a contridiction with what I said about the state of the profession above, but really they go together hand in hand.

I'm a firm believer in telling the awful truth about what is happening to the piloting profession because I want the people in the cockpit with me to be there because they want to be there. I don't want bitter downers that are miserable and make my days with them painful as well.

I know that we pilots are our own worst enemy when it comes to the state of the industry, and I am content with that knowledge. Just call me a Happy Camper. :bandit:

 

[B767Driver]

I want the people in the cockpit with me to be there because they want to be there. I don't want bitter downers that are miserable and make my days with them painful as well.

:

Me too....but I also want them to be intelligent, resourceful and talented. An eagerness to do a job is commendable...but having the talent to do so trumps all. With an anemic earning potential...the bulk of the talent will bolt to a brighter financial future. Those who remain probably don't have the talent/capacity to earn more financially in other professions/endeavors...and hence will remain very pleased to average $40k/yr over their careers. Those who remain will be fulfilled in their career...because their aptitude will limit their career option as a retail regional sales manager. I can only imagine the status they will enjoy amongst their neighbors in the trailer park. The envy of every one of them.

With the financial catastrophe of the airline industry...it has managed to remain unimaginably safe. The only reason for this is the exhaustive effort of aviation professionals i.e. engineers, mechanics, pilots, air traffic controllers and even customer service support. These professionals have been taken for granted...and even we don't give ourselves credit for the work we've done. For this industry to continue in this manner, it must provide rewards to attract and retain those best suited for the job. These rewards must be factored into the equation as this industry searches for a winning and sustainable foundation. Failure to do so, IMO, will lead to an unsafe industry...wich is something nobody in this industry will be able to recover from.

We all know pilots out there who are not well suited for the job. Somehow they manage to get by. Currently they are very few and far between. We want to keep it that way...and not let them become the norm of our professsion. The job, done properly, is too difficult and stressful to be done for low pay.

I love to play golf. I am the happiest when I come home from the golf course after shooting a quick 9 holes. Like walking on air. No way I'm talented enough to pay the bills doing it though. It's a hobby...I'm not talented enough to be considered a professional! Now if a golf tournament payed out $100 to the winning golfer...all the talented folks would go become stock brokers and I might have a chance to win. I'd pocket $100 for the week's work...but man it's so good for my state of happiness. I don't get it.

 

[SteveC]

The safeguards that only allow smart, safe, competent pilots are seperate from financial compensation. It should be the oversight of the FAA, through training and check rides that ensure capable people in the cockpit, not the carrot of high paying jobs.

I will not stoop to suggest that this career is different from others, and that pilots need to have a *higher calling* to the position rather than a desire for good financial rewards. I will suggest, though, that the desire for financial gain is no more an indicator of someone with good piloting skills than is hair color. I will also suggest that a "love of the profession" gives added incentive for a person to study hard, do the best that they can, and remain that way throughout a career. Possibly more so than the incentive of making a small fortune that was possible in the past.

That said, I will back up and say that I am not implying that you think that financial gain should be the primary incentive. I will also not take offense at your (purely unintentional, I'm sure) implication that people motivated to become pilots purely for the love of the career are less intelligent, or motivated or talented than any others.

Really, the external safeguards should be in place to protect the industry. If the pay level falls so low that not enough qualified applicants are willing to work for that pay, then and only then will the pay rise to entice them into the career. It is the setting of standards, and ways to ensure them, that will set the bar high enough that only capable people can jump the hurdle, and the pay will follow from that. Cart...horse.

In the current airline industry pilot compensation is market driven. Unless you envision a different environment, how do you propose that pilot compensation be driven upwards to attract the brightest and the best? Standards of acceptable pilot skills and training can be (and are) regulated. Regulation of pilot compensation might be a little more problematic, both practically and politically.

 

[B767Driver]

The FAA safeguards are questionable. First, they will allow someone with 250 hours of C152 time to become a jet airline pilot. I know of some CHQ pilots hired with 30 hours of ME time! Second, airlines employ their own evaluators...who both train and check their peers. Third, you can fail a checkride numerous times and eventually be trained to proficiency and sent out to the line. With enough training you are going to get through, unless the company has enough sense to wash the poor performer.

If the FAA was serious about safeguards, IMO, they would have tweaked the experience requirements for Part 121 pilots. The 250 hour commerical pilot is currently entrusted to such command time as flight instructing, banner towing, sightseeing flights, etc. Now, pilots who cannot legally command a Cessna 210 with boxes of halloween supplies from Green Bay to Appleton are allowed to fly .80 mach jets with someone's 8 year old daughter aboard...while experienced pilots are shut out due to impoverished wages.

With the advent of the RJ, IMO, the FAA should have tweaked Part 61 to require of minimum of 1500 hours for a Part 121 SIC and 3000 hours for Part 121 SIC.

This is really a worthless topic debating amongst a group of pilots. I don't blame any aspiring pilot to jump all over opportunities to get in the door. That displays drive, ambition and leadership and I commend them for their hard work.

But on the regulatory front, I'm very critical of the FAA allowing the lack of experience in the Part 121 cockpit. Like I stated earlier, the FAA won't allow a 250 hour commerical pilot to fly a single engine cessna in freight operations...and the 1500 hour pilot would only barely be qualified to do the same. Both pilots, however, get the FAA's blessing to fill a 70 seat jet and fly 1500 nm to some destination.

It's eventually going to bite hard!

 

[SteveC]

The FAA safeguards are questionable.

I agree with your summation, and all the pertinent points that follow.

The regs are where those problems need to be addressed. Going back to our prior discussions, I would argue that the FAA regulations and the manner of inter-company training and checking is what needs updating to address pilot competency issues, and that pilot pay scales will follow upward if the requirements and difficulty level is increased. Market forces would then be working in the pilot's favor, rather than against them. It would be backwards to insist that pilot pay scales should be raised to entice higher quality candidates to the field without first raising the bar.

If the FAA was serious about safeguards, IMO, they would have tweaked the experience requirements for Part 121 pilots. The 250 hour commerical pilot is currently entrusted to such command time as flight instructing, banner towing, sightseeing flights, etc. Now, pilots who cannot legally command a Cessna 210 with boxes of halloween supplies from Green Bay to Appleton are allowed to fly .80 mach jets with someone's 8 year old daughter aboard...while experienced pilots are shut out due to impoverished wages.

With the advent of the RJ, IMO, the FAA should have tweaked Part 61 to require of minimum of 1500 hours for a Part 121 SIC and 3000 hours for Part 121 SIC.

This is really a worthless topic debating amongst a group of pilots. I don't blame any aspiring pilot to jump all over opportunities to get in the door. That displays drive, ambition and leadership and I commend them for their hard work.

But on the regulatory front, I'm very critical of the FAA allowing the lack of experience in the Part 121 cockpit. Like I stated earlier, the FAA won't allow a 250 hour commerical pilot to fly a single engine cessna in freight operations...and the 1500 hour pilot would only barely be qualified to do the same. Both pilots, however, get the FAA's blessing to fill a 70 seat jet and fly 1500 nm to some destination.

It's eventually going to bite hard!

Agreed.

 

[B767Driver]

I will also not take offense at your (purely unintentional, I'm sure) implication that people motivated to become pilots purely for the love of the career are less intelligent, or motivated or talented than any others.

Many will be very good. However, it may require a checkride bust rate of 75% or so to find them. I believe the drop in quality applicants will be precipitous. Military pilots will not be inclined to separate, and high aptitude civilian pilots will find a $100,000 education investment better spent in medical school than flight school.

That leaves those who really "love to fly" as applicants. Some will have a decent aptitude. Many will not.

I can offer this observation. I've flown at high paying majors and low paying commuters. At the higher paying jobs...the quality of personnel is inspiring. At the lower paying jobs...there are great guys working their way up...but there are also those with poor aptitude and skills. More of the latter will find their way into the system. They all have great attitudes...but are a complete drag to fly with because you are always covering for their faux paus.

 

[Cheechako]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]Post Deleted...

....it's late and I'm feeling a little punchy....



[/font]

 

[Ophir]

Um. Wrong site for that. I like airplanes, but not that much. My right hand was in a heating pad due to a cycling injury.

Cycling injury? Don't tell me, you couldn't get out of your pedals with those new shoes?

Do those things fit you?

 

[Kingairer]

---------------------------------
First, they will allow someone with 250 hours of C152 time to become a jet airline pilot. I know of some CHQ pilots hired with 30 hours of ME time
----------------------------------

This must not have been in recent history. I have not heard of anyone getting hired with that low of time in the past few years. If he was hired within that time his last name was bedford or chautauqua or something.