CRJ-200 - 1/2 Bank and Holding

SpiceWeasel

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
Curious what other airline procedures are out there. I've been doing it wrong for a while. We are supposed to turn off half bank if above 31,600 (altitude it automatically comes on) and holding. This keeps you within protected airspace at the FD max bank of 25 degrees.

Chart notes:

Low - High Speed Buffet
(FL330 / 52,000 LB)
.58-.85 M, 202-204 KIAS

Long Range Cruise
(52,000 LB / FL330)
.71 M, FF 1154 PPH

Recommended Holding Speed
(2 Eng Abv 15,000)
225 KIAS

Question for other 200 guys is this:

Do you feel most comfortable at LRC above or recommended? Do you feel comfortable at either of those speeds without 1/2 Bank? Does your airline prefer to manually disengage 1/2 Bank or exceed the protected airspace?
 
The question hasn't been specifically brought up, and honestly, I think it would take our training department about four weeks to figure out what the policy is going to be for them to start shipping to the line pilots that if I asked the question, their head(s) may explode - collectively, all at the same time.

They really don't like these times of questions.
 
I don't think I've done a green needle hold since 2006. When nav is flying the airplane, I don't have any control over how much it banks.
 
Jtrain, how many hours in a Canadian RJ do you have bro?

Those of us flying the cold-weather version of the RJ around have an ability to engage or dis-engage a 1/2 bank mode.
 
1/2 bank off. I'm comfortable at recommended hold speed. We have an ACARS page that also has the min hold speed listed at all times. I'm comfortable going 5-10 kts above that. Flew with a captain recently who absolutely refused to go any slower than 250 in the hold at FL300.

I also flew the jungle RJ before this one. And you can get that thing slow in a hold!
 
Does the jungle jet have 1/2 bank controllability? (You see, I've never been in one - much less flown one...so I won't even begin to act like I know wtf you guys have to deal with).
 
surreal1221 said:
Does the jungle jet have 1/2 bank controllability? (You see, I've never been in one - much less flown one...so I won't even begin to act like I know wtf you guys have to deal with).
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, it does have 1/2 bank controllability. I think the ExpressJet guys use it on takeoff. Then turn it off on their crazy button mashing after takeoff check.
 
surreal1221 said:
Does the jungle jet have 1/2 bank controllability? (You see, I've never been in one - much less flown one...so I won't even begin to act like I know wtf you guys have to deal with).
Click to expand...

We do have 1/2 bank controllability. In green needles it automatically comes on above FL250.

And the 2nd part of that, in our old profiles, we did in fact did takeoff in low bank but that is no more for the most part.
 
Copy Dat, is this true when NAV mode is engaged? Just trying to understand Jtrain's statement a bit better coming from an ERJ guy. Regardless of lateral mode selected, we can select (or deselect) 1/2 BANK without disengaging the lateral mode being used.
 
B767 said:
If I remember correctly, it does have 1/2 bank controllability. I think the ExpressJet guys use it on takeoff. Then turn it off on their crazy button mashing after takeoff check.
Click to expand...

You mean it's not normal to have to move two levers, mash 8 buttons and turn 2 knobs when the tower is trying to hand you off to departure?
 
I've done the holds at altitude in the 900, turning the half bank off. It's weird but it works and you may see the creepy crawly coming up from the bottom but it wasn't outside my comfort range. Mesaba also showed us in the sim so I'd seen it before for fake and that helped my comfort level.
 
cencal83406 said:
Chart notes:

Low - High Speed Buffet
(FL330 / 52,000 LB)
.58-.85 M, 202-204 KIAS

Long Range Cruise
(52,000 LB / FL330)
.71 M, FF 1154 PPH

Recommended Holding Speed
(2 Eng Abv 15,000)
225 KIAS
Click to expand...

We didn't turn off 1/2 Bank above 31,600 to hold where I was.

What G loading (or it may list max angle of turn) is that Low Speed/High Speed buffet number from? Also, 202-204 knots? That seems like a really tight window. Our charts had two sets of data. One for 1.25Gs and one for 1.37G. The 1/2 Bank gave you protection at 1.25Gs where as if it was off you were protected at 1.37Gs.

I think... I've been off the plane for almost a year now and have dumped a lot of it.
 
surreal1221 said:
Copy Dat, is this true when NAV mode is engaged? Just trying to understand Jtrain's statement a bit better coming from an ERJ guy. Regardless of lateral mode selected, we can select (or deselect) 1/2 BANK without disengaging the lateral mode being used.
Click to expand...
The 1/2 bank is only used when in heading mode. When in NAV mode, there is a separate automatic logic that reduces/increases bank.
 
A better question is what the hell were you doing in the 30s in a 200? Aside from the middle of winter I never went above 290 in the 200. I preferred not to spend the first 2/3 of the flight trying to climb at 500fpm just above the stick shaker to get to altitude...
 
BobDDuck said:
We didn't turn off 1/2 Bank above 31,600 to hold where I was.

What G loading (or it may list max angle of turn) is that Low Speed/High Speed buffet number from? Also, 202-204 knots? That seems like a really tight window. Our charts had two sets of data. One for 1.25Gs and one for 1.37G. The 1/2 Bank gave you protection at 1.25Gs where as if it was off you were protected at 1.37Gs.

I think... I've been off the plane for almost a year now and have dumped a lot of it.
Click to expand...

Low - High Speed Buffet Chart notes:

.3G Buffet Margin protection is not applicable in shaded boxes.
Speeds are based on an aircraft C.G. of 25% MAC.
A more forward C.G. narrows the buffet speed envelope; i.e., It increases the low speed buffet and decreases the high speed buffet.
A more aft C.G. expands the buffet speed envelope; i.e., It decreases the low speed and increases the high speed buffet.
A 1.3G load is generated by a 40° Bank in smooth air or a 30° Bank in light turbulence.

So the short answer is you leave 1/2 Bank on.

Endeavor turns off 1/2 Bank above 31,600 in a hold.

Rocketman99 said:
A better question is what the hell were you doing in the 30s in a 200? Aside from the middle of winter I never went above 290 in the 200. I preferred not to spend the first 2/3 of the flight trying to climb at 500fpm just above the stick shaker to get to altitude...
Click to expand...

Heh, you like setting off FOQA? Shaker isn't that close to 250/.7 :p

The whole reason for this is the company told us in class "we were doing it wrong" if we weren't turning 1/2 Bank off for holds above 31,600.
 
This is a great topic. Thank you for bringing it up. Wish I had more answers. I will go digging. First instinct is to leave it on, as it is a form of stall protection at those altitudes. That being said, I imagine the aircraft is most likely capable of committing to a full bank.
 
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