I have an android phone, a windows computer and a Mac. Without getting into a 'my operating system is better than yours' debate, I'll just say each has there pros and cons.
Craziest aviation video I have ever seen
- Thread starter Vector4Food
- Start date
seagull
Well-Known Member
Which is why I prefer Ubuntu (Linux), where you get the Mac o/s (mac is actually Linux based and Ubuntu screen looks virtually identical), without any blocks to what types of software will run. Plus, it's all free.
Vector4Food
This job would be easier without all the airplanes
It's a sign of the times when a video about an F16 dodging SAMs turns into a cellphone thread.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Linux ≠ BSD, but I'll let it slide.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I'm actually somewhat amused at the reception here. I've waited a couple days to post this because I wasn't completely sure of the right way to express it without sounding condescending or critical. In fact, quite the opposite -- I wish I could help you guys see this video the same way that I do when I watch it.
As someone who has had to also dodge SAMs, and has had at least one very close call, I can tell you that it was one of the most significant emotional life-changing events of my entire life. It scared the living snot out of me -- terrified like I have never been at any other time. I'm sure that it was a similar case for the Viper pilot in this video.
Yet, the responses from folks who watch the video are "cool" and "wow!" That's not a criticism of any of you guys, again, it's just an observation...it's too bad that you guys don't experience a video like this in the same way that I do (and like other guys with similar experiences do).
I know that before it happened to me, I had a pretty romanticized view of combat, and of things like getting shot at. I thought that it was one of these things like I saw in the movies where steely-eyed warriors would stare each other down with clenched jaws and flexing muscles...a very glamorized view of things. When I asked Vietnam and Desert Storm vets about their experiences, their replies surprised me -- very few of them wanted to talk about it, and those that did never really got into the details. I just didn't understand it...why wouldn't they want to talk about something so "awesome".
Well, now I get it. Getting shot at is highly over-rated. Actually living through a situation where, in the back of your mind, you are acutely aware that you might really, actually die, is a phenomenally terrifying experience. There's nothing glamorous or sexy or awesome about it.
When I felt these things after my experiences, I was actually quite embarrassed about it. Embarrassed that I'd been scared by these brushes with death. I thought I was supposed to be one of those steely-eyed guys who took it all in stride, like that story in the intro to Wolfe's The Right Stuff. It was a watershed moment when, in talking to a friend who is a Vietnam combat vet fighter pilot, he replied to my story by saying, "well OF COURSE you were terrified. Jesus, anyone who says they weren't scared to death when they were getting shot at is a liar or in heavy denial!"
So, the amusing observation about this thread and people's posted responses is just what these videos are reduced to in the information age. They're shared over the internet, and people see them without context. Taken just on face value, the videos lack the gripping human side of the story that really makes them amazing to see and hear. For many, it's like watching a TV show or playing a video game. It may be interesting, amusing, exciting. Some may not really be interested in it at all.
When I watched this video, I moved up to sit on the front of my chair. I got a little closer to the screen to look at the details in the HUD. I turned up the volume on the speakers. My heart rate went up, I started to sweat a little, and I got a little jittery. It was a visceral reaction to what I was witnessing.
It's not some weird PTSD flashback for me, I was just subliminally putting myself in that guy's shoes and experiencing that with him...and I understand what he must feel like at that moment. The strange mix of fear and excitement, all the while his mind racing to precisely execute the tactics he's studied and practiced over and over prior to that moment. It socks me in the gut when I watch it. It reminds me, too, of how such an experience put life's priorities into perspective (which is actually an extremely good thing).
I certainly don't wish that any of you ever gain that insight for yourselves--combat is a phenomenally ugly thing that nobody should have to experience--but I sure wish there was a way I could share that experience with you when you watch a video like this. I think you'd see it, and life, in a whole different way if you did.
As someone who has had to also dodge SAMs, and has had at least one very close call, I can tell you that it was one of the most significant emotional life-changing events of my entire life. It scared the living snot out of me -- terrified like I have never been at any other time. I'm sure that it was a similar case for the Viper pilot in this video.
Yet, the responses from folks who watch the video are "cool" and "wow!" That's not a criticism of any of you guys, again, it's just an observation...it's too bad that you guys don't experience a video like this in the same way that I do (and like other guys with similar experiences do).
I know that before it happened to me, I had a pretty romanticized view of combat, and of things like getting shot at. I thought that it was one of these things like I saw in the movies where steely-eyed warriors would stare each other down with clenched jaws and flexing muscles...a very glamorized view of things. When I asked Vietnam and Desert Storm vets about their experiences, their replies surprised me -- very few of them wanted to talk about it, and those that did never really got into the details. I just didn't understand it...why wouldn't they want to talk about something so "awesome".
Well, now I get it. Getting shot at is highly over-rated. Actually living through a situation where, in the back of your mind, you are acutely aware that you might really, actually die, is a phenomenally terrifying experience. There's nothing glamorous or sexy or awesome about it.
When I felt these things after my experiences, I was actually quite embarrassed about it. Embarrassed that I'd been scared by these brushes with death. I thought I was supposed to be one of those steely-eyed guys who took it all in stride, like that story in the intro to Wolfe's The Right Stuff. It was a watershed moment when, in talking to a friend who is a Vietnam combat vet fighter pilot, he replied to my story by saying, "well OF COURSE you were terrified. Jesus, anyone who says they weren't scared to death when they were getting shot at is a liar or in heavy denial!"
So, the amusing observation about this thread and people's posted responses is just what these videos are reduced to in the information age. They're shared over the internet, and people see them without context. Taken just on face value, the videos lack the gripping human side of the story that really makes them amazing to see and hear. For many, it's like watching a TV show or playing a video game. It may be interesting, amusing, exciting. Some may not really be interested in it at all.
When I watched this video, I moved up to sit on the front of my chair. I got a little closer to the screen to look at the details in the HUD. I turned up the volume on the speakers. My heart rate went up, I started to sweat a little, and I got a little jittery. It was a visceral reaction to what I was witnessing.
It's not some weird PTSD flashback for me, I was just subliminally putting myself in that guy's shoes and experiencing that with him...and I understand what he must feel like at that moment. The strange mix of fear and excitement, all the while his mind racing to precisely execute the tactics he's studied and practiced over and over prior to that moment. It socks me in the gut when I watch it. It reminds me, too, of how such an experience put life's priorities into perspective (which is actually an extremely good thing).
I certainly don't wish that any of you ever gain that insight for yourselves--combat is a phenomenally ugly thing that nobody should have to experience--but I sure wish there was a way I could share that experience with you when you watch a video like this. I think you'd see it, and life, in a whole different way if you did.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
How'd you know it was him?
Excellent insight - thanks!
Thank-you for sharing that.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
You know, Hacker....it's funny you mention these things. Because as I watched the video, I was thinking about how intense this event was and wondering about the 'after-action' procedures. Would this pilot be given any time off from duty and provided any counseling regarding this? I realize in combat people get shot at and you can't be removed from duty for extended periods of time or no one would be left to conduct the missions. However for sustained duty, some measure of counseling following life-altering action would seem to improve a person's ability to continue to press on with future missions.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Yes and no. Probably not in the way you're thinking of it.
First off, although this is a rare event in terms of occurrence and exposure (meaning, the vast majority of US combat pilots will probably never experience this type of encounter), this type of event is not really considered 'out of the ordinary' -- I know that sounds contradictory, but this type of mission event is exactly what combat pilots train every day during their entire careers for. They're not institutionally given any special time off or counseling for having experienced such an event -- it's part and parcel of the job they are there to do.
If a pilot feels like he needs a break while he's engaged in combat operations, he can sure ask for it -- days off the flying schedule if needed. In my experience, when a pilot self-identifies that he wants/needs some time off the flying schedule, squadrons do everything they can to make that happen. That's the type of thing that we take very seriously, and I don't think it's a sign of weakness when someone says, "hey, I need a break". Sometimes the pace of things allows it, sometimes not. I will say that very rarely happens. Personally, I didn't want time off after scary encounters -- I wanted to get right back in the saddle and continue. I trained my whole career to fly in combat operations, and I wasn't about to 'waste' that opportunity sitting on the bench. I love my job, and my therapy was to get out and fly again as soon as possible.
If a pilot feels like they need to go talk to somebody about it, again, those resources are certainly there, even in a combat zone. It's certainly not required while deployed and actively engaged in combat operations. Personally, telling war stories after a sortie to your fellow squadronmates (over an adult beverage when circumstances allowed...) was the best way for me to blow off steam. I also wrote a journal of my experiences which I also found therapeutic. I don't know how many guys seek out such counseling while engaged in combat operations. I personally don't know of any...but it's confidential, so tons of people could be seeking it out and I just never heard about it. I personally think that the camaraderie facilitated by a combat flying squadron is therapy in and of itself, and is the reason why those units' members are so close to each other.
That being said, the military does give deployed troops time off when they get home and have them go talk to mental health professionals/chaplains when they return afterward. The time off is required...not sure how many people take up the offer to talk to someone about it.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Do the councilors have any combat experience?
inigo88
Composite-lover
I found the youtube equivalent, it says "F-16 dodging 6 Iraqui SAM launches on Jan 19, 1991."
Hacker the closest I've been to combat flying is playing a computer game... and watching that still scared the crap out of me. I know the SA-2 is an old missile - it became famous for shooting down Francis Gary Powers' U-2 in 1960. But getting one shot at you is still nothing to sneeze at, and must require some incredible skill and well timed maneuvering to avoid. Getting six shot at you in 9 minutes seems unheard of!
I'm really curious if you can comment on a really basic level about what is actually involved in "dodging" a SAM attack from an SA-2 (if not I understand). I would think the U.S. has had the last 50 years of SIGINT gathering (not to mention I know Nellis has a bunch of Russian radars you can fly against during Red Flag) to develop some pretty good ECM packages to fight these things. None the less... at what point when you're "defending" for almost 10 minutes against six SAMs shot at you do you start worrying about things like running out of chaff, etc?
Hacker the closest I've been to combat flying is playing a computer game... and watching that still scared the crap out of me. I know the SA-2 is an old missile - it became famous for shooting down Francis Gary Powers' U-2 in 1960. But getting one shot at you is still nothing to sneeze at, and must require some incredible skill and well timed maneuvering to avoid. Getting six shot at you in 9 minutes seems unheard of!
I'm really curious if you can comment on a really basic level about what is actually involved in "dodging" a SAM attack from an SA-2 (if not I understand). I would think the U.S. has had the last 50 years of SIGINT gathering (not to mention I know Nellis has a bunch of Russian radars you can fly against during Red Flag) to develop some pretty good ECM packages to fight these things. None the less... at what point when you're "defending" for almost 10 minutes against six SAMs shot at you do you start worrying about things like running out of chaff, etc?
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
On a very basic level, aircraft defend against a radar-guided SAM (like an SA-2) in two different ways.
First, you try and 'defeat' the radar. Your maneuvers can take advantage of weaknesses in the guidance systems, can deceive the tracking mechanisms, or outright shut down the ability of the radar to work and follow you.
Second, the maneuvers can attempt to kinematically defeat the missile (run it out of energy). Ultimately the missile has a finite amount of energy with which to maneuver (rocket motors have a finite burn time), and the more of that energy you can cause the missile to bleed off during it's time of flight, the less able it will be to maneuver well enough to hit you because of the low energy state.
How we accomplish these things...that's not for discussion in this forum.
Just realize that defending against a SAM is like being in a boxing match or a soccer game -- plans rarely last after the first couple seconds of the engagement. Pilots have to constantly assess a large number of factors -- type/number of threat, energy state of you and enemy, weather, terrain, etc. Many times defensive tactics change multiple times during an engagement depending on circumstances.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
None of the ones I've ever met do.
Given the fact that the US has been in constant combat operations for nearly a decade, I'm sure by now there are some therapists out there who have been combat shooters and subsequently became counselors.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
That's what I was wondering how much good a councilor would be with no common experience.