Coudn't complete IOE

robofos

robofos

Well-Known Member
I have been asked to resign at my first 121 regional. I made it through ground training OK, but the problem was in IOE. At the end of my first trip, my check airmen recommended more time. I was flying the E-175 struggling mostly with the automation, especially descending to the FAF after the STAR. My second attempt of IOE was split between two very different check airmen which was quite a disadvantage. On my last flight, I was still making small mistakes, and I wasn't recommended for a line check. I expected another final chance from management, but ultimately was asked to resign. I guess I am seen as a liability at this point. That's the short version, and now I'm trying to put that behind me.

My question is: how do you recommend discussing this on my next interview? It's not considered a fail, just an incomplete. How can I still have a successful interview without being a "liability" to the next company? I'm sending updated apps to other regionals, hoping that going through training a second time will be smoother.

I am also posting this to advise everyone to pass IOE by the second attempt! I know most people get it by the first, and even more by the second. Lots of us new FO's are coming from CFI backgrounds having only flown Cessnas and Seminoles. Its a steep learning curve, and I wish the training department was more sympathetic to that.
 
I hate to hear about anyone failing training. I would recommend investing in flight simulator and playing with some of the automation on there. It doesn't have VNAV capability unless you buy some special add on's but it has the simple FCP panel which is usually pretty standard. I haven't heard of too many people having trouble with automation though. Regionals are hiring like crazy but don't be quick to go somewhere else and make the same mistakes. As far as future interviews be humble, don't blame the check airman and tell them what you learned from this experience.
 
robofos said:
My question is: how do you recommend discussing this on my next interview?
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Be open, forthright, and honest about it.

Airline interviewers really only want to hear two things about "black marks" on a pilot's record:
- That you take ownership of your own faults/mistakes, and
- That you learned from it and are a better aviator/person now because of it

First, take the time to have some honest introspection about what happened and where you failed to meet standards. The way you tell it, a combination of your lack of proficiency with the automation and your SA being "behind" the jet led to your performance failures. When you tell the interviewer about the story in the future, it is vital that these reasons focus on your performance, your shortcomings (as mentioned earlier, don't blame the check airman, etc).

Second, take that honest assessment and learn from it. Write down a list of, "next time I will...." things you'd do differently in training, or take extra time to learn/practice if you were going through training again. Your post obviously shows that you want to bounce back from the failure, and that resiliency should be part of your story when you tell it. "I fell down, but I got right back up again...."

As an aside, I went to fly a E-175 at a regional as a retired USAF fighter pilot with 4,000 hours, 20 years of military and combat experience, etc., and just like you I found that same segment of flying (the end of the STAR to the beginning of the approach) to be very challenging when I got out on IOE. The training syllabus at my airline did not show the different "get down"/"slow down" techniques out in the ATC environment around big Class-B airports (especially with ATC-directed speed and altitudes that didn't match the configuration profile I'd been taught in training). Consequently when I got out there in the "real world" on IOE, this was an all-new skill that I had to learn.

As an experienced pilot, I knew deep down that I could deviate from the configuration roadmap, but I was unsure how much of that deviation from standard was allowable at an airline. I sucked at it at the beginning, but I made a concerted effort to learn when to use FLCH, when to use V/S, when to use FPA, etc, to get the airplane where I wanted it to go. So, keep your chin up -- that stuff is hard to learn, even for an experienced aviator!
 
I think key to discussing this in an interview is to focus on yourself. Even if you absolutely got hosed, don't bring that up. Bring up the things that Hacker said. Placing blame anywhere but yourself would just sound like sour grapes.
 
Be open, honest, and forthright. Explain what the situation was - leave out the CA comments.

Issues with the automation, and how to descend to the FAF after the STAR. Here is what I learned about that or here is how I plan to educate myself on that. Ask for their input. How do you do it here or how do you do it?

The automation gets many pilots. Some of us have experience with automation, yet every manufacturer and every "revision or change" creates a new learning opportunity. ASK what is the best standard of practice.

How much deviation from the Standardized training is acceptable. It varies from place to place (sadly from CA to CA)

Being behind the jet is not a negative. This is one of the reasons there are restrictions placed on Time in Type and recency of experience. That is understood.

I'll +1 what the others said.

Get back in the saddle and go for it again. If you get on with another carrier with the E-175 you are most of the way there!
 
Sorry to hear you didn't complete IOE. I was in a similar situation earlier this year, except I didn't even make it to IOE, I washed out during sims. I have since been hired at a different regional, and I have other black marks on my record too (I was in an accident a few years ago). So in this hiring climate another regional will likely give you another chance.

Be honest about what happened, and take responsibility for not completing IOE. Make sure you don't blame others for it even if there were issues with the captains you had for IOE. Explain what you did to become more proficient with automation, and why you think training will go more smoothly the second time around. That's basically what I did to bounce back after washing out, except my issues were different (mainly insufficient IFR proficiency and also getting behind the airplane). Pretty much everything @Hacker15e said.

Going to another E-175 operator might be a good idea, especially since you must already have the type rating. However if that doesn't work out, you might consider going to a turboprop operator since turboprops are slower, and it's not quite as easy to get behind the airplane. That's more or less what I did, I washed out on the CRJ-900 and then went to the Dash 8 at C5. I wouldn't necessarily recommend coming to C5 just to fly the Dash though as it seems like most of our new hires are going into the ERJ.

I hope this is helpful, and best of luck with getting back in the saddle.
http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/washed-out-how-to-proceed-from-here.240572/ I started this thread asking for advice after I washed out, you may find some of it useful.
 
Sorry to hear man. You completed the hardest part of initial. My struggle during OE was similar with transitioning from the STAR to a visual approach. Sounds like you just need practice and repetition which is how I learn as well. Good luck and I hope it works out for you.
 
Yakob, I saw your thread on here and I almost didn't start a new one because our situations are so similar. I just wanted to vent, kind of, and seriously to let anyone reading know you can still get kicked out during IOE! I thought the hard stuff was over once I left. Not the case. Just the boring stuff. It's still a challenge. How much time off did you have between the two jobs? Did they spend a lot of time in your interview talking about your washout in training? And was it easier the second time around?

Thanks for all your input. Makes sense not to blame the company and sound all bitter. Does anyone have experience with an ERJ or any type add-on for a computer sim? If it's somewhat realistic I would buy it. I have Microsoft Flight sim X.
 
robofos said:
Yakob, I saw your thread on here and I almost didn't start a new one because our situations are so similar. I just wanted to vent, kind of, and seriously to let anyone reading know you can still get kicked out during IOE! I thought the hard stuff was over once I left. Not the case. Just the boring stuff. It's still a challenge. How much time off did you have between the two jobs? Did they spend a lot of time in your interview talking about your washout in training? And was it easier the second time around?

Thanks for all your input. Makes sense not to blame the company and sound all bitter. Does anyone have experience with an ERJ or any type add-on for a computer sim? If it's somewhat realistic I would buy it. I have Microsoft Flight sim X.
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I had about 7 weeks off between when I washed out at my previous employer and when I started at CommutAir. They definitely asked about the washout in the interview, at both TSA and C5. They asked why I washed out, why I thought I'd do better the second time around, and what I was planning to do to make sure I was better prepared. And yes training was in many ways easier having done most of it before, especially sims. Can't compare IOE since I washed out before it at the 1st airline though. Ground school was a bit harder just because it was a little more fast-paced and compact than at the first airline but no one in my class had any major issues with it.
 
robofos said:
Yakob, I saw your thread on here and I almost didn't start a new one because our situations are so similar. I just wanted to vent, kind of, and seriously to let anyone reading know you can still get kicked out during IOE! I thought the hard stuff was over once I left. Not the case. Just the boring stuff. It's still a challenge. How much time off did you have between the two jobs? Did they spend a lot of time in your interview talking about your washout in training? And was it easier the second time around?

Thanks for all your input. Makes sense not to blame the company and sound all bitter. Does anyone have experience with an ERJ or any type add-on for a computer sim? If it's somewhat realistic I would buy it. I have Microsoft Flight sim X.
Click to expand...

Yep IOE is still a training event but like you said not as boring. One issue is that sim world can be different from the real world in many ways and if you don't know that it will catch you off guard. In the sim you really don't practice things like the DTW approach controller leaving you high and clearing for a visual or changing runways at the last min like in IAH. It can be a lot for a new hire. I got the ERJ add on for FS both the 145 and the 175. They seem to be pretty realistic.
 
Man, I wish you had posted here when you first started struggling. For anybody else in the same position, please do so. I've been flying the E175 for about a year and a half. Getting from the end of the STAR to the runway is not really an automation thing though, that's a learning how to go down and slow down in the jet thing.
Just for next time, some general tips...at first, treat everything like a dunk, when you get more experienced you can mess around with FPA or VS. Until you figure it out though... for one thing, if you're at 8000 and they give you 3000 or 2200 feet they're going to dunk you. FLCH... if you're at 210 kts, gear down, flaps 1 and spoilers will give you truly sickening rates of descent well in excess of 4000 fpm if you got a bit behind things. If you're at 250, fly the last speed from the STAR but if you need to slow down, ask if you can slow. Once past the airport in the downwind I'd prefer to be going no faster than 210. However, the jet goes down faster if you aren't slow. Keep in mind if you hit FLCH at 210 with no boards and no flaps, it'll just wallow down at an unimpressive 900fpm (whereas the same config at 250 gives -2500fpm due to the relationship between airspeed and descent rate..). This gets tricky when they assign you a speed like 210 early on, the only way it works in the 175 is drag, be it spoilers, flaps or gear, or a combination of all three.
The other thing I would recommend if you go to another E175 operator is to jumpseat a little more and pay a lot of attention to what they're doing during that phase of flight.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
210 knots is a do-anything speed in that thing.
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That was a big change from the ol' 145. 250 was a perfectly fine speed for that ride.

It takes ~17 seconds to extend Flaps 1. IMO once you get Flaps 1 out, all your energy management problems are over.

Becomes just like the 145 again.
 
Dphoenix said:
Man, I wish you had posted here when you first started struggling. For anybody else in the same position, please do so. I've been flying the E175 for about a year and a half. Getting from the end of the STAR to the runway is not really an automation thing though, that's a learning how to go down and slow down in the jet thing.
Just for next time, some general tips...at first, treat everything like a dunk, when you get more experienced you can mess around with FPA or VS. Until you figure it out though... for one thing, if you're at 8000 and they give you 3000 or 2200 feet they're going to dunk you. FLCH... if you're at 210 kts, gear down, flaps 1 and spoilers will give you truly sickening rates of descent well in excess of 4000 fpm if you got a bit behind things. If you're at 250, fly the last speed from the STAR but if you need to slow down, ask if you can slow. Once past the airport in the downwind I'd prefer to be going no faster than 210. However, the jet goes down faster if you aren't slow. Keep in mind if you hit FLCH at 210 with no boards and no flaps, it'll just wallow down at an unimpressive 900fpm (whereas the same config at 250 gives -2500fpm due to the relationship between airspeed and descent rate..). This gets tricky when they assign you a speed like 210 early on, the only way it works in the 175 is drag, be it spoilers, flaps or gear, or a combination of all three.
The other thing I would recommend if you go to another E175 operator is to jumpseat a little more and pay a lot of attention to what they're doing during that phase of flight.
Click to expand...

Flaps are a lift device, not for drag. But yea, 210kts, 1/2 spoilers, flaps 1 helps you get down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ctab5060X said:
What @learhawkerbe400 said comes straight from our training department on the 190.

They prefer us to be within 10 knots of green dot before extending flaps rather than right at vFE.

210 with Flaps 1 does very well in the transition, but slam dunked close in... 180, Gear Down, Flaps 3 makes it drop like a rock.
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I'm sure I'm over simplifying because I don't have jet time, but honestly that sounds exactly like any high-performance complex aircraft. Only difference is the exact numbers.
 
Dphoenix said:
Man, I wish you had posted here when you first started struggling. For anybody else in the same position, please do so. I've been flying the E175 for about a year and a half. Getting from the end of the STAR to the runway is not really an automation thing though, that's a learning how to go down and slow down in the jet thing.
Just for next time, some general tips...at first, treat everything like a dunk, when you get more experienced you can mess around with FPA or VS. Until you figure it out though... for one thing, if you're at 8000 and they give you 3000 or 2200 feet they're going to dunk you. FLCH... if you're at 210 kts, gear down, flaps 1 and spoilers will give you truly sickening rates of descent well in excess of 4000 fpm if you got a bit behind things. If you're at 250, fly the last speed from the STAR but if you need to slow down, ask if you can slow. Once past the airport in the downwind I'd prefer to be going no faster than 210. However, the jet goes down faster if you aren't slow. Keep in mind if you hit FLCH at 210 with no boards and no flaps, it'll just wallow down at an unimpressive 900fpm (whereas the same config at 250 gives -2500fpm due to the relationship between airspeed and descent rate..). This gets tricky when they assign you a speed like 210 early on, the only way it works in the 175 is drag, be it spoilers, flaps or gear, or a combination of all three.
The other thing I would recommend if you go to another E175 operator is to jumpseat a little more and pay a lot of attention to what they're doing during that phase of flight.
Click to expand...

Understanding your aircraft's glide performance is huge to being able to plan a decent. Like the CRJ-200/700. Flaps 0 210 knots you can glide FOREVER at idle thrust on glide slope. In the CRJ-200 with a VFE8/20 of 200 knots That thing is a biscuit to try and slow while staying on glide path to get flaps in. I always pitch to level (either in VS mode, or hand flying) get a little high on glide slope, but with boards out and level you can get to 200 knots quick get Flaps 8 or 20 in and dive right back to glide slope. The CRJ-200/700 will also glide all day long on glide slope at flaps 8 at approximately 180 knots. I also know clean the plane will glide at 1,600-2,000 FPM at 250 knots depending on weight, altitude, and anti-icing. I also know it will glide clean at 210 knots at 1,000-1,300 FPM again depending on those factors. Understanding these relations and what you expect approach or center to do to you on an arrival or slam dunking you for a visual approach or ILS is huge for knowing your aircraft and when you need to configure, use boards etc. It's actually a quite satisfying feeling when you know you're airplane and what it takes to stay ahead of it.

Best of luck! Wipe the dust off, and get back on the bike and try again. I'm sure another airline will give you a shot. There is a lot to be said for making it all the way past sim and on to IOE. That shows you have what it takes. As long as you can own your mistakes and identify what it will take to make a difference a second time around, and you're able to explain that at an interview, I think you should still have a very bright future in the airlines. Best of luck, and let us know how things turn out!

Also I second the jumpseating advice. Observe a few flights, and see how guys handle different situations. That will help build your mental toolbox for figuring out transition from a STAR to vectors for a visual or ILS.
 
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