Cost expectations

[Boris Badenov]

I'm thinking of treating myself to a fun plane as a reward for upgrade (which hasn't happened yet, so no jinxes please). I'm not brand new to aircraft ownership, but it's been about 20 years, so I anticipate the costs have, uhm, "adjusted". I'm not totally settled on what to buy, nor even what *sort* of thing to buy, but the early contenders are things like a Steen Skybolt, a Pitts S-1, that sort of thing. What would those who know estimate the ballpark costs to be, including hangar, mx, insurance, etc?

 

[Roger Roger]

Bout tree fiddy

 

[gotWXdagain]

Bout tree fiddy

And then we realized that the pilot was an 8-story tall monster from the Paleolithic era.

 

[chipdumper]

A nice 10-15yr old Super Decathlon will set you back one fiddy. Checkout your local IAC chapter; they’ll be happy to lure you into the extremely unique sport of aerobatics.


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[Boris Badenov]

That's a little rich for my blood, but I have an eye on some things I can afford. I'm mostly interested in the revolving costs, as I have no idea what to expect or bargain for.

 

[milleR]

A lot of this stuff you just have to do you homework on. Call the airport(s) and price hangars, contact an insurance broker and get quotes, join an owners club/forum and ask questions, make friends with a local A&P (IA preferably). Your location, flight time and personal network will directly impact all these costs so it’s going to be hard to get a ballpark number from an internet stranger that’s even reasonably accurate. You’ll just wind up comparing notes in the end and either lamenting or basking in your relative position.

On the other hand, if you just want to talk about what you should buy I’m quite certain opinions are abundant and ready

 

[Boris Badenov]

Oh, so you're not going to do this FOR me. Fine, be that way.

I acknowledge that this is all a bit misty. So let's get concrete. Let's say that I were to snap up this Skybolt I kinda have one beady little eye on. Relatively low time, looks like it's flown regularly, but not often, if that makes sense. Acknowledging that hangaring and insurance costs are able to be discerned with a phone call or four, my primary concern is maintenance. What would you expect for an annual on a plane like that? What does an A&P who has the relevant skillset charge to work on something like that, these days? Say it's...oh, I dunno, an O-320...what would you expect for a maintenance reserve on that engine? Someone out there has the answers I'm seeking...don't make me Find You.

 

[Roger Roger]

Maintenance: A&P/IA $50/ hour and lots of meals/beer for a buddy of yours working out of your hangar. $100/hr and up for a shop. I don’t know enough about a skybolt to know it’s maintenance needs but let’s say that an annual on a fixed gear piston single takes 40 man hours (very variable number) and half that for parts....$6000. Then let’s assume you can still get an O320 overhauled by a reputable shop (but not by the factory) for $20k and you go 2000 hours (pretty reasonable for a 320 if flown regularly) and that’s $10/ hour for the engine. Bump it to $15 to account for installation man hours and all the extra crap that goes with an engine change.

There, that’s a couple “horse is a sphere” numbers.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Excellent, thank you. I may just go see a man about a horse. I mean sphere.

 

[chipdumper]

I have a nicely equipped Mooney (paid cash) that costs $50/hr in fuel. Hangar + Insurance + Annual = $5000. Add in $15/hr like the other guy said for engine reserve. At 100hrs/yr it’s 50+50+15= $115/hr.
“If it floats, flys, or •s it is cheaper to rent”
If it was available, I would seriously look into a flying club. I don’t have any around me. There are some nice clubs that are CHEAP to join and they all run at cost. $500-1000 to join and paid for fuel plus a modest maintenance reserve. That is insane man. I would join one in a heartbeat if it was possible.


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[killbilly]

I have a nicely equipped Mooney (paid cash) that costs $50/hr in fuel. Hangar + Insurance + Annual = $5000. Add in $15/hr like the other guy said for engine reserve. At 100hrs/yr it’s 50+50+15= $115/hr.
“If it floats, flys, or •s it is cheaper to rent”
If it was available, I would seriously look into a flying club. I don’t have any around me. There are some nice clubs that are CHEAP to join and they all run at cost. $500-1000 to join and paid for fuel plus a modest maintenance reserve. That is insane man. I would join one in a heartbeat if it was possible.


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There isn't a flying club worth its non-participating-but-really-demanding members operating a Mooney for less than $115 an hour.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Yeah, flying clubs are obviously the way to go in terms of straight $$$ to hours in the saddle. But I'm looking at a specialist sort of aircraft, plus I don't want any other scumbag's hands getting anywhere near my car, motorcycle, or airplane. MY TOYS, MINE! DON'T TOUCH! I was an only child, not my fault.

 

[chipdumper]

I asked the IAC club guys about the cost of entry on the cheap bastard end of the spectrum and you’re going to drop at least 60k for something old. That is doable for me IF I sell my current bird.


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[Nark]

Here’s my take:
You can’t justify the cost of ownership, as compared to a club or FBO rental. You are most likely going to fall short as an owner.

However, there is something very rewarding to chasing your favorite hockey team across the Midwest when they play, and win, as the visiting team. Or meeting a bunch of new friends at fly-in. Or taking the truck to the hangar for an oil change and end up flying across the state for dinner, because you are too lazy to figure out what you want to make for dinner.

Right now, I think my bird is around $159/hour.
I pay $1250/year for insurance and $211/month for a hangar. Annuals for me are super cheap, but I know a guy.
If my engine makes metal tomorrow, I’ll eat kraft dinner for a little while, but I can afford the overhaul, which is my biggest expense.

 

[Boris Badenov]

The love of sportsball confuses me deeply, and I've got enough friends as it stands, but I think this translates, nevertheless. I want to hoon around actually flying an airplane for the first time in a decade or two, and I'm willing to lay out the dosh to do it, provided it's reasonable. It's sounding like maybe it is. Thanks to you all, I shall investigate further.

 

[z987k]

The Skybolt is experimental, so that should reduce the cost of ownership pretty significantly. That $2000 alternator Nark has to put on will cost you $40 from ACDelco. It's also the same thing, part numbers and all. Some things, you do have to buy the airplane version of though. Most places have an experimental version that is the same thing without paperwork for 25-50% less. The annual labor might cost less since any A&P can do it. Especially if you know an A&P, do the whole annual yourself(meaning everything is fixed and perfect when you present it) and all they have to do is shine a flashlight on stuff to ensure you did in fact do it all correct.
You'll be able to do 100% of the Mx and change anything you want without blessings from the FFA. Just can't sign the annual unless you built it.

That said, buying someone else's home built requires an even more in depth pre-buy than a certified. You really need to know the airplane well.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'm a redacted idiot when it comes to doing mechanical things properly. I can, for example, make a bike run well enough to get me home with a roll-up set of spanners, two screwdrivers, some WD-40, zip-ties, duct tape, and baling-wire. But I have yet to ever repair anything properly...those of you who do are freaking magicians to me. So I'm going to need a legit A&P, not a "have a beer and sign this off" dude. This is going to change the calculus a bit, I suspect.

 

[z987k]

I'm a redacted idiot when it comes to doing mechanical things properly. I can, for example, make a bike run well enough to get me home with a roll-up set of spanners, two screwdrivers, some WD-40, zip-ties, duct tape, and baling-wire. But I have yet to ever repair anything properly...those of you who do are freaking magicians to me. So I'm going to need a legit A&P, not a "have a beer and sign this off" dude. This is going to change the calculus a bit, I suspect.

To be honest I'm not sure how you do airplane ownership without crazy deep pockets if you're not going to be pretty dang familiar with the entire mx side of it.
For example, you find an oil leak on post flight. You take that to a shop and say fix it, well hold on to your checkbook.
If you open up the cowl, find it, oh it's a hose that needs to be replaced, take it off, take it to any ol' hose shop and say, I need this length hose in this material using 37 degree AN8 fittings, $20 and you're back in the air.
The shop will have to charge you time to find the leak and will then go buy pre made aeroquip hoses at $200 a foot. A week(delivery time) and $3000 later, you're back in the air.

 

[Nark]

@z987k ehhhhh I just replaced my generator, it was $350. True, not $2k but it is also the same from a tractor, $40 in parts to rebuild it.

 

[milleR]

I'm a redacted idiot when it comes to doing mechanical things properly. I can, for example, make a bike run well enough to get me home with a roll-up set of spanners, two screwdrivers, some WD-40, zip-ties, duct tape, and baling-wire. But I have yet to ever repair anything properly...those of you who do are freaking magicians to me. So I'm going to need a legit A&P, not a "have a beer and sign this off" dude. This is going to change the calculus a bit, I suspect.

You need an A&P that will walk you through an owner assisted annual