Coolest VLJ yet..

flyover said:
To be fair, when analyzing the safety of the single-engine turbines you have to factor in the adverse effects of two engines (yes there are some). Commercial passenger jets and plenty of "biz" jets have crashed when the crew failed to control the airplane after an engine loss. Systems are less complex. Flying characteristics are more sedate, the VLJs fly at very low approach speeds compared to the typical biz-jet. And more redundancy is engineered into the single-engine types making already reliable engines even more so.

Undoubtedly Piper will have to prove the structual integrity and controllability of the airplane following a catastrophic engine failure.

And as for worrying about these airplanes clogging the airways, there are many things that mitigate that. It should be a minor issue at worst.
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Thanks flyover. I you helped answer most of what I was trying to obtain. I didn't post for people to be jerks about my question.:mad:
 
Doug Taylor said:
350 kts at FL350? Good luck!

Airliner 1419, slow to 230 knots, your traffic is a VLJ...
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HaHaHaHaHaHaHa! :tease: Now you'll know how I feel.

Rearrange the words Doug. I hear this stuff every day behind you airline chumps :D

EJA123, slow to 230 knots, your traffic is an airliner.
 
NJA_Capt said:
HaHaHaHaHaHaHa! :tease: Now you'll know how I feel.

Rearrange the words Doug. I hear this stuff every day behind you airline chumps :D

EJA123, slow to 230 knots, your traffic is an airliner.
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Hey Speedracer, I'm not the one that's doing 230-250 KIAS until the flight levels! :) Them's those other guy!
 
H46Bubba said:
Yeah that's it!:yeahthat: :) Didn't mean to call you a jerk.:( I was just getting frustrated trying to find out some info.
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I would respond back and say it's cool, but I don't want to fuel the rumor of a JC clique. So everybody reading disregard this post and I hate H46Bubba more than ever:)
 
It is always interesting to speculate and debate the merits of different designs. But, the actual failure rate of turbine engines is very low. Structural failure is even more rare and fires are also almost unheard of.

I was just in recurrent for the Hawker 800 and when we were discussing the engine and the fire bottles, the instructor said that as far as he knew, there has never been an actual engine fire on this model of airplane, and there are quite a few of them flying.

So, I would not worry too much about the safety of these airplanes.

In all, I think the most common accident you are going to see is runway overruns on landing. Unlike an airplane with a prop, a jet is pretty unforgiving about landing long, or being over Vref. You can float quite a ways with out that windmilling prop to slow you down. The FAA took a hard look at the Raytheon Premier a few years ago, to include the training program because so many went off the end in a short period of time. But if you try to land at Ref +15 half way down a 4000' runway, it is not the airplane's fault.

The insurance companies are going to keep untrained pilots without instrument ratings out of these airplanes. So you will not be seeing people take off into IMC and crashing into the side of a mountain like you currently do in a lot of piston accidents.
 
I think it's funny how folks break out with a worst case scenario to prove their point:rotfl:
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I wasn't even thinking of the worst case scenerio. If your flying a SE Jet in the flight levels and that thing quits. You are a very busy person. That is what I was trying to illustrate. You don't have the luxury of a SE drift down or the dual systems that a ME Jet has. I am sure Piper has thought of this. But regardless if they have, you are going to be one very busy person getting that thing safley back to earth. There are plenty of Caravan/TBM/Pilutas flame out incedents to support that. I am not knocking any of those A/C, and I would gladly fly one.

And more redundancy is engineered into the single-engine types making already reliable engines even more so.
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All that means is a slightly bigger back up battery at best, and avionics that don't use as much power. But that stuff is in all modern Biz Jets. Not just SE ones.

P N H
 
I dont understand what the hell yall are so scared about the whole single engine thingy fer!!

ummm....didnt most of yall get your private in a 172 ;)
 
The argument can be made either way. There have been several studies that examine accidents from both SE and ME turboprops that support they both are equally as safe.

Here is a snip from a study conducted by Gordon Gilbert

<<snip>>

U.S. turboprop-singles have had 1.99 total accidents and 0.80 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hr compared with 2.37 and 0.83, respectively, for U.S.-registered turboprop twins. These figures cover the period from initial aircraft certification through last year.

<<snip>>

Another interesting factoid is since the introduction of the TBM 700 in 1990, there has never been an inflight engine shutdown.

The Pilatus PC-12 also boasts a very impressive safety record which reveals since its release a much safer record when compared to King Airs.
 
VLJ's are going to be the ultimate fly in the ointment for ATC. During one of our briefings a few months back we watched a powerpoint on VLJ's... the whole group groaned at once. Some are proposed to fly as high as FL410 at speeds half of what everyone else at those levels cruise at. Plus the climb rates for these things are in the toilet. They make an RJ look like a rocket ship...
 
PositionAndHold said:
There are plenty of Caravan/TBM/Pilutas flame out incedents to support that.
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I think the record is actually the opposite. Flame outs in these types have been exceedingly rare. Nobody is saying they are impossible.

And a flame out in a twin makes for a very busy pilot. For one thing he is now flying an airplane that, if he doesn't plan carefully and fly precisely, will be inverted and out of control in a second.

If you are going to compare ME and SE safety you cannot ignore the times where an engine loss on a twin ended badly.
 
I think the record is actually the opposite. Flame outs in these types have been exceedingly rare. Nobody is saying they are impossible.

And a flame out in a twin makes for a very busy pilot. For one thing he is now flying an airplane that, if he doesn't plan carefully and fly precisely, will be inverted and out of control in a second.

If you are going to compare ME and SE safety you cannot ignore the times where an engine loss on a twin ended badly.
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I guess using the word flame out was bad. But if I remember, there have been several incidents in the last year or so with the TBM and Caravan. I believe there have been several deadstick landings in TBM's due to a fuel controler problem.

And a flame out in a twin makes for a very busy pilot. For one thing he is now flying an airplane that, if he doesn't plan carefully and fly precisely, will be inverted and out of control in a second.
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No doubt there is plenty going in a twin when in quits. I was trying to make the point of SE Jets and ME Jets. Piston twins and singles are a whole different animal, along with turbine ME A/C. In a ME Jet, an engine out should be a non event, and it generaly is.

Also the singles we are talking about are generaly PT-6 powered machines wich have millions of accident free flight hours. I would fly behind them any day. These new breed of VLJ wether SE or ME are being powered by brand new engines and technology. Remeber the old saying "Never fly the "A" model of any thing".

I own a '47 Stinson so I don't have any thing against singles. But I'm not going to fly it to Catalina at 500 agl, it's a long swim.:)

P N H
 
Most of the SE jets are going to be using existing engines that have already been flying for many hours on other aircraft. You might not want to fly across the N. Atlantic to Europe, but other than that, I would not worry too much.
 
Most of the SE jets are going to be using existing engines that have already been flying for many hours on other aircraft. You might not want to fly across the N. Atlantic to Europe, but other than that, I would not worry too much
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I'm not to sure wich engines you are speaking of. As far as I could find, Williams, GE, Pratt and Honda/GE all designed clean sheet VLJ engines. In fact one of the main reasons for the VLJ craze is these new lighter fuel effecient engines. But they are still first generation designs in this catagory. They don't have the millions of flight hours on them as others do. Heck even the ones that do have the hours in deployment still have problems. Just look at the recent Beechjet incidents (four dual engine flame outs at altitude) Now that's probably not the engine design, but some things going wrong when it shouldn't.
 
I am so jealous right now. I'd love to own a 108-3 sometime.
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It's such a fun airplane. We have a108-1, but its got the 165 Franklin and a baggage door. So it's the same as a -2. They're a true four place airplane, 4 adults and full tanks and you can go 3 hours with an hour reserve(full tanks). :)
 
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