Continuous Duty Overnights. Your thoughts?

Until I read through this thread, I had always “Ass”umed that civilian crews had the same crew rest rules as the military. Our minimum crew rest was 15 hours 15 minutes from the time you got to the hotel until takeoff the next day. So basically, subtract 3 hours 15 minutes (Van time) and you have a minimum of 12 hours in the hotel. Now that was violated a little here and there, but nothing like what you guys describe happens in the civvy world.

From what I am reading, the law is 8 hours block in to block out? Wow. That is worse than the DOT’s Hours-Of-Service requirements for a truck driver (Must have 10 hours OFF, or 2 periods in the sleeper berth, one not being less than 8 hours, which add up to 10 hours, for every 11 hours of driving, 14 hours on-duty).

Dear lord tell me I am mistaken?
 
It's even better than that. Transportation to and from the hotel counts as rest...

FAA rest rules have been worse than trucker rest rules for years. It's really nuts. The good thing is the pilots unions often negotiate better rules (see why I'm rabidly pro-union vs the alternative)

9.5 hours is our min rest at an outstation. There is language where they can reduce it for this and that but they know they are asking for a fatigue call if they do it, so I don't think it happens much.
 
So I am guessing fatigue calls happen a lot? Can a pilot be fired for calling in fatigued when they did not have enough scheduled rest?

In the AF, we had a means to “re-declare crew rest” IF we were in any way disturbed during our off time. I only remember it being used once: We got a call from ops in the middle of the night while in Naples, Italy. It seems we needed to taxi the aircraft to another spot so an inbound C-5 had somewhere to park. The AC was ticked and re-declared for the whole crew.

What is the max duty day for civvy again? In the AF, I really cannot remember all the details, but I think it could go as high as 24 or 26 hours with an augmented crew (3 pilots, 2 loads) Generally, I believe it was 16 hours. Also, at the end of a mission, you got one day of post-mission crew rest for every 3 days you were out, up to a total of 3 days (I heard this went up since I left). A good point is that I am quoting MY rules current from 1998. I am sure they all changed a little.
 
LoadMaster
I don't know if fatigue calls happen a lot or not. The fear of being fired for complying with regulation keeps most of us, myself included, flying when we shouldn't be. I finally pulled the pin and took some sick days this last week for my back, but I still shouldn't be going back out, but much more than 6 days in a row for a sick call and things get a little dicey.
 
"Can a pilot be fired for calling in fatigued when they did not have enough scheduled rest?"

You're leaving the area regarding FAA rules and getting into flight crew labor policies. Lots of variables in that. Some scumbag type outfits I suppose you could get fired. Where I work, the big fight isn't over getting fired so much as getting paid. If you call fatigue, they will charge you for sick time. They see it the same as calling in sick. The union will fight that they shouldn't charge you sick time for a fatigue call, as you really aren't sick, but just unable to perform due to a company induced scheduling situation or a poor hotel situation.
 
I think I am finally starting to understand a phrase told to me by a JC’er when I first got here a few months back,

“I love my job from the time the cockpit door closes until it opens again”

Yup it is making sense now.[/FONT]
 
DE727UPS said:
It's even better than that. Transportation to and from the hotel counts as rest...
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Yup.

Assuming your transportation provider to the hotel isn't giving the patented, "five more minutes!" which usually turns out to be 15 or 20.

I think it's important to seperate "legal" and "contractural".

We have a guaranteed 8 hours "behind the door" clause in our contract. But the FAA doesn't give a hoot as long as there's a 8 hour 'break in duty'.

If you're waiting for a late hotel van, you're not on duty. Or if the hotel doesn't have a special 'crew area' at the front desk and they're not playing ball with the keys, you're still considered on rest.

I'd say, at best, on an 9 hour layover, I've probably gotten, at best, about 6 hours of sleep if I've already eaten, have a shirt that can last another day and I'm not wired from shooting a intense approach.
 
"Stand Ups" always seem to go VERY senior at SKYW. Some guys really like them. Though I think I would probably get tired after a week or two of it. But the people that like them have the attitude that you stay home all day, fly a relatively short flight, go to bed, fly home and have all day to do what you want. Low flight time but high credit. Minimal time away from home.

I have picked up a few from time to time. They can a good way to get 5 or 6 hours of credit with very little effort. (Compare to the 8 leg day I did yesterday for about 6.5 hours of credit.) I'm sure the whole thing can burn you every once in awhile though.

Personally I feel like I need a minimum of 11 hours on a layover. I can't shut my mind off as soon as I get into the hotel.
 
It's that guy who was blocking the line at Starbucks... GET IM!
 
See, I might actually like CDOs.....if they paid more at my airline. As it is, there is no incentive to bid for CDOs. Every other job I've worked at, the guys and gals that worked the back of the clock got more money to compensate for throwing their rhythm out of whack (even SWA had an overnight ramp position at the mail house that got paid more). But, CDOs pay just as much as a day run to the same place.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Some people hate 'em because you're not really on a layover where you can get adequate rest.
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That's really the key, isn't it? Can you get adequate rest? Everyone is different and some people may be able to while others may not.

I'd say if you can handle it, take it. If you can't, then don't.
 
Sometimes, you don't have a choice. PCL likes to mix CDOs in with regular trips in the lines. I think they like to "share the love....."
 
We don't have Standups at XJT (at least I haven't seen 'em). However, we do our fair share of red-eyes. We have 3 kinds.

The first is the red-eye turn...Duty in about 9:30 pm or so. Fly 1 leg to the outstation (PHX, ONT, PSP, DEN). Sit for about 2 or so hours on the ground and be back in IAH by 6:00 am. I've done one of these to DEN. It wasn't too bad. Got about an hour nap in the back of the plane. Plus, you're paid for 2 days of work. I imagine this is what a standup is like (minus the hotel)

The second kind is fly a 4-day with Day 3 getting in somewhere (PHX, SLC, BOI) fairly early in the day. Duty on for Day 4 at about 1 or 2 in the morning, fly 1 leg back to IAH. Haven't done one of these, but I imagine it's hard to sleep during the day to be rested for the last leg.

The last kind is the LAX red-eye. Leave LAX at about Midnight or 1 am. Fly down to Mexico. Land about 5 am. Sit for about an hour. Leave Mexico and fly to Houston. Land about 8:15 or so. They have had these where you have 24 hours off in LA before you do it or they have them where you DH to LAX, off for about 12 hours then do it. The latter works out great for SOCAL commuters. They get paid to go to work.

I've done the LA red-eye both ways. I find it really hard to make myself go to sleep in the early afternoon to get rested for the night flight. Plus, I'm like Doug. I'm gone when the sun hits my eyes after a late-night flight.

Either way, I prefer to fly on the front side of the clock.
 
I have done my fair share of CDOs at my airline.

1 or 2 is fine. Its the 3rd or 4th in a row that i hate.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Do you know how to end that? If you've got a mid-day sit of 4 hours, negotiate a hotel in the next contract.

Yes, you'll see a lot of 3:55 sits but at least there's a 'cap' of sorts.
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We had that in the old contract. Lost that, along with a few other things. But ... let's not go THERE. Enough said.

Yes, we used to see sits of 3:58, 3:59, etc, just to avoid it. Typical corporate BS. Just build efficient schedules and this won't be a major cost.
 
I think they're safe (or at east "as safe as other schedules") providing the crew is professional and manages their rest time to ensure they are rested for the trip.

People who say "I can't rest at home during the day because...." aren't managing their rest time - if that makes them unsafe that's hardly an industry problem.

An 8:00AM to 5:00PM day trip is unsafe if the pilot doesn't sleep the night before. But what can we do, not schedule day trips because some pilots like to hang out with their friends all night?

Overall airline scheduling doesn't not provide sufficient safeguards to ensure that pilots CAN get the rest they need at all times, so generally I'd say airline schedules aren't as safe as they could be from a rest perspective, but I don't believe CDOs are any less safe. I'm not saying I LIKE them, but.....
 
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