I didn't mean for that to sound like I was questioning you. The media seemed to mis that extra 24 hours.....:insane:
Continuous Duty Overnights. Your thoughts?
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
I didn't mean for that to sound like I was questioning you. The media seemed to mis that extra 24 hours.....:insane:
frog_flyer
FredFlyer
I've found that there are different kinds of nappers out there.
My dad is a 'lay on the couch in my office for 10 minutes and be on the ball when I wake up'
I'm the 'lay on the couch and die for 3 hours and wake up with horrible breath' kind of napper.
Sleep/nap/etc does different things for everyone. But, never underestimate a good nap. I don't have clas until noon or 1 each day and i've begun to wake up around 10ish so I can have a nap when i return from class. They're great.
/randomness?
My dad is a 'lay on the couch in my office for 10 minutes and be on the ball when I wake up'
I'm the 'lay on the couch and die for 3 hours and wake up with horrible breath' kind of napper.
Sleep/nap/etc does different things for everyone. But, never underestimate a good nap. I don't have clas until noon or 1 each day and i've begun to wake up around 10ish so I can have a nap when i return from class. They're great.
/randomness?
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I sound like your dad when it comes to power naps!
aloft
New Member
All depends on how you define "normal life" and "correct sleep schedule".
Is a CDO any better or worse than a coast-to-coast redeye?
B767Driver
New Member
A coast to coast red-eye can be tough...especially if you've not rested well before hand. In my experience, however, I can rest really poorly during the day...then feel very alert all night long. The impaired feeling is delayed until mid afternoon or the next day...and it can hit hard.
The key is to only have one leg to fly. If there's another leg tagged on to the end...forget about it...impaired city.
The key is to only have one leg to fly. If there's another leg tagged on to the end...forget about it...impaired city.
sm203900
Well-Known Member
Back in the day when I worked in the scheduling (yes you can throw pooh at me) there were specific guidelines to crewmembers working high speeds, cds, or whatever you want to call them. Line holders could only be assigned to three in a row, i think, anything more and crewmembers had to specifically request to fly them. IF you working as a reserve you could only do two in a row. Some crewmembers loved them because you were guaranteed a hotel room and you only flew two legs in a twenty-four hour periond. Others hated them because you were basically working the back side of the clock. My opinion is that it will depend on the person flying them. It is not a bad thing if you prefer to work those flights and your body can handle the adjustment.
I've done both, more or less.
Not coast to coast like LAX to BOS, but lots of LAX-ATL on the 727 at o'dark thirty.
A coast to coast redeye is way easier than a CDO in my personal opinion. It might be opposite for someone else.
I'm a nightowl so I'm usually way more alert (and entertaining!) at night/early morning. But on less than 3 hours of sleep when my body expects a standard sleep cycle, I'm useless.
I think after a while your body starts to think, "Ok, we're at the hotel, let's check email and sleep for about seven hours" but if you're only getting three or four, no matter if you napped all day, your brain is still anticipating the normal cycle.
But if I can sleep pretty good during the day, report to the airport at 2200 for a 2300 departure with a cup of coffee and some decent reading material, I'm golden... until the sun rises... then my brain starts shutting down.
The problem, I think is when people that function well on CDO's have to call in sick.
Then you're calling a reserve pilot, pretty much a few hours before he was about to hit the sack and say "Guess what? You're reporting in two hours for a 2300 departure to do a high-speed in Dallas and two legs home".
It's completely legal. The reserve pilot is on 'rest' at home and probably hasn't been used for at least 12 hours so he's legally available for the flying.
But the ramifications for a junior reserve pilot telling his scheduler, "Umm, I've been up all day and not rested for a trip of that nature"....
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
This is very simple. You laying there is more like passing out and your breath smells 'cause thats what Vodka smells like when after you've pounded a few and passed out on the couch.
sm203900
Well-Known Member
I guess I should have mentioned this as well, the reserve guys/gals that were called out for cds were on a late night window, i.e. did not go on call until 7:30 or 9:00 pm at night. Again it is going to depend on the person, some of the more senior pilots had the ability to bid these, but there were also the fresh face just finished ioe pilots that were stuck with these because the company needed to fill the slots.
My personal opinion, I think that it would be far more valuable to have an actual overnight. I am not a night owl, but due to my seniority I am forced to work the late shift. I have adjusted to it but that does not mean that during the last few hours of my day I am at the top of my game. Give them the sleep and you are less likely to have the fatigue call and if nothing else you may boost morale
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Doug
I do not think that is a valid "scenario". I believe this is an FAA ruling, but I could be wrong.
At PDT we had a reserve 'start' time. 15.5 hours from that time you were a pumpkin. That prevented scheduling from doing what you describe. Technically you are on "duty" since you are on call at home.
Not really important to this thread, and I will be damned if I can find the ruling from the FAA.
Actually, when I sat reserve at my last airline, pre-contract we had no 'windows'. So a reserve day was a reserve day. I was one of the lucky skunks at my present airline and never sat reserve except for about a week before I got an SRL/supplemental reserve line with pre-scheduled trips.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I'm same way, working at USAA from 1AM-7AM. I'd lay down in the break room for 20 minutes during my break, then get up and finish my shift. If I didn't hate talking to people on the phone for a living I'd continue being employed there.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Oh, there are ways around this, trust me. For example, my reserve start time is 7 AM. I get the call at 8 AM "We have a high speed for ya in DTW tonight, so we're going to DH you up there late this afternoon. In the meantime, you're released to get your required rest. We'll call you later with the details." Not nice, but totally legal in the eyes of the FAA and the pilot contract. So, I was aready awake with my kid, and NOW I have to take him in to daycare, come home and try to go back to sleep, yet I still have to get a phone call notifying me of not only my show time, but where the hell I'm going that night. This is legally called "rest."
Like was mentioned previously, I'm normally okay on the 1st leg after a CDO (mainy b/c I'm just delerious from sleep deprivation). It's some of the reduced rest overnight, I think, can be worse. With CDOs, you can't go over 15.5 hours of duty, so they more or less have to release you when you get back. If WX is a factor on both ends of the CDO, you're screwed, though. On the reduced rest overnights (let's take DEN for example), the hotel can be (and IS in DEN) about 30 minutes from the airport. Well, you just lost an hour there. It takes time to get ready in the morning and un-ready at night, so we'll call that another 45-60 minutes. So, you're looking at a 6 hour night's sleep if you're lucky, which is often bookended by 5-6 leg days. Ask me how useful I am on that 6th leg the second day.
I think rest periods are one of the serious problems in the airline industry today. 8 hours of rest does not mean 8 hours of sleep. A pilot should never have to make the decision b/w "Do I eat when I get to the hotel" or "Do I sleep when I get there." Both are essential to functioning in a highly alert state.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Very nicely said. Hope the FAA gets their heads out of their A$$ and change this.
Bog
New Member
When I was a senior FO in PHX, I bid standups. Up to three in a row was no problem; the 4th one you knew your body was getting tired. There was a time or two that I'd swtich days and get a block of 5, but in those blocks I would sleep 6+ hours at home during the day and whatever I could get at the hotel that night.
Our worst, back then, were in AUS and SAT, where we'd have about 4 1/2 hours from block-in to report. Those were hard. MFD standups were great, because we could get 6 hours of actual sleep time at the hotel, if we were on-time leaving PHX.
Adding a quick r/t to the front end of the standup wasn't too bad. Any thought of adding one to the back end ... screw that.
Many of our PHX crews are flying shifts that include 3-4 hours "sits" (aka sleepovers in the airplane) in several outstations due to our lackluster scheduling. It's one of those "legal, but not safe" things that continues to get scheduled because our crews continue to fly them. We, as crew members, have to stop flying unsafe shifts. The FAA, NTSB, and management teams will never change things as long as we do.
Our worst, back then, were in AUS and SAT, where we'd have about 4 1/2 hours from block-in to report. Those were hard. MFD standups were great, because we could get 6 hours of actual sleep time at the hotel, if we were on-time leaving PHX.
Adding a quick r/t to the front end of the standup wasn't too bad. Any thought of adding one to the back end ... screw that.
Many of our PHX crews are flying shifts that include 3-4 hours "sits" (aka sleepovers in the airplane) in several outstations due to our lackluster scheduling. It's one of those "legal, but not safe" things that continues to get scheduled because our crews continue to fly them. We, as crew members, have to stop flying unsafe shifts. The FAA, NTSB, and management teams will never change things as long as we do.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Well Doug, you make it sound like it is as easy as saying "We don't want 4 + hour sits" during the next contract negotiations, it ain't that easy.