Consequences of incorrect endorsement?

N

ndakcfi

Well-Known Member
I recently ran into a bit of an odd situation regarding an endorsement from another CFI.

Basically, it looks like the student in question was signed off for (and flew) their first solo cross country without having covered several of the "maneuvers and procedures" in 61.93 at any point before that flight occured. Specifically, there's no evidence in the logbook that short/soft takeoffs and landings, hood work, or radio navigation was covered before the solo, and talking with the student confirmed that material wasn't covered when it should have been.

I know that kind of screwup can come back to bite the CFI who wrote the initial endorsement, but I was wondering if this is something that can blow back on the student or other instructors that might work with them during their training.
 
You're not responsible for your student's past CFI, but you are responsible for your student from this point forward. Do whatever remedial work you need to do to get the student up to speed and go on from there.
 
No, you'll be fine. But now that you've caught the error, you should provide and document the training before allowing the student to fly another solo cross country.

This situation is similar to a solo student flying at night without an endorsement. Sure, they broke a reg, it shouldn't have happened, and the CFI would get in trouble if a problem had arisen during the trip and the feds started investigating what training had been given. But the fact is, nothing happened, so all you can do is provide correct training from this point forward and carry on.

Also, although you didn't ask, I'll say it anyway--the cross country trip counts towards the license. The student does not need to "redo" it. I've heard instructors suggest that "illegal" flights must be re-done legally, but that's not true. It counts, no matter if it was performed legally or not.
 
jrh said:
No, you'll be fine. But now that you've caught the error, you should provide and document the training before allowing the student to fly another solo cross country.

This situation is similar to a solo student flying at night without an endorsement. Sure, they broke a reg, it shouldn't have happened, and the CFI would get in trouble if a problem had arisen during the trip and the feds started investigating what training had been given. But the fact is, nothing happened, so all you can do is provide correct training from this point forward and carry on.

Also, although you didn't ask, I'll say it anyway--the cross country trip counts towards the license. The student does not need to "redo" it. I've heard instructors suggest that "illegal" flights must be re-done legally, but that's not true. It counts, no matter if it was performed legally or not.
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Maybe, but the use of that flight can be used against a student pilot. Student pilots have been violated for illegal flights. There is one NTSB legal summary where a private pilot certificate was suspended for an illegal flight by the pilot when he was a student pilot.
 
Blackhawk said:
Maybe, but the use of that flight can be used against a student pilot. Student pilots have been violated for illegal flights. There is one NTSB legal summary where a private pilot certificate was suspended for an illegal flight by the pilot when he was a student pilot.
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I doubt they would take action against a student pilot for an error they probably knew nothing about that should have been caught by the CFI. They DID have an endorsement and had no reason to believe they were not allowed to fly that flight. Now, if they picked up a bunch of friends or said screw the endorsement I know what I'm doing and flew, then I could see them getting hit.
 
amjon said:
I doubt they would take action against a student pilot for an error they probably knew nothing about that should have been caught by the CFI. They DID have an endorsement and had no reason to believe they were not allowed to fly that flight. Now, if they picked up a bunch of friends or said screw the endorsement I know what I'm doing and flew, then I could see them getting hit.
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Not knowing or understanding the rules has never been an excuse in the eyes of the FAA.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3622.pdf
 
Did they have the correct endorsement for the solo flights? They just didn't put the flight maneuvers in the remarks? I know a lot of schools follow a syllabus which is logged outside of a logbook. They may have covered the training, but not put it in the logbook. As long as the endorsement is there, they should be good to go correct?
 
I have seen worse with log books. I had a couple students that somehow soloed and did their solo crosscountries the day before their private checkride. At least that is what the endowments showed.
 
juxtapilot said:
Did they have the correct endorsement for the solo flights? They just didn't put the flight maneuvers in the remarks? I know a lot of schools follow a syllabus which is logged outside of a logbook. They may have covered the training, but not put it in the logbook. As long as the endorsement is there, they should be good to go correct?
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No. The training must be documented. If a CFI makes an endorsement without the required training being documented he/she could run into trouble with the FAA. If the training is documented outside the logbook in a record folder, for example, you should be okay.
 
This is kinda of similiar, and wondered your Input. My buddy recently finished his commercial pilot training and passed his checkride. Now it was suppose to be part 141. Soon after he passed the flight school got a law suite filed due to them never getting a 141 certificate.

Can he lose his liscense?
 
Blackhawk said:
Maybe, but the use of that flight can be used against a student pilot. Student pilots have been violated for illegal flights. There is one NTSB legal summary where a private pilot certificate was suspended for an illegal flight by the pilot when he was a student pilot.
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I know what you're saying, and I agree, in principle. A pilot can't claim "ignorance is bliss" when it comes to regs.

But still, there's the real world, practical way of dealing with what the OP is dealing with. If he tells the student to cross out the previous entry and fly a new cross country, all that's going to do is draw attention to the fact that he broke a reg. If he leaves things the way they are, chances are high that nobody will ever know the difference. I'd say this advice applies to the majority of inadvertent reg-breaking that student pilots occasionally do.

Also, in the case you linked to above, I'd be curious to find out how the FAA found out about the problem. From my experience, it's quite rare to have a student or reasonably competent instructor making an honest effort to follow the rules, then get smacked out of nowhere for not having every i dotted or t perfectly crossed.

Most of the time, it's somebody who really had it coming for a long time. They're either so incompetent that they're screwing up right and left, or so hazardous that other pilots are complaining to the feds about a situation. The case you cited, which involved numerous operations with NO endorsements sounds like such a case. The OP's case, of having one instance that was documented, but not fully or correctly, doesn't seem like something the feds would want to waste their time with, other than maybe an informal call to the instructor, cautioning him to be more careful in the future.

YMMV.
 
Blackhawk said:
Not knowing or understanding the rules has never been an excuse in the eyes of the FAA.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3622.pdf
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True when you're talking about a private pilot, but this would be referring to a pre-solo STUDENT. If their instructor tells them they are fine, they really have nothing else to base their understanding on and really shouldn't be expected to have to know on their own what their instructor obviously never taught them.
 
Blackhawk said:
No. The training must be documented. If a CFI makes an endorsement without the required training being documented he/she could run into trouble with the FAA. If the training is documented outside the logbook in a record folder, for example, you should be okay.
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I keep a separate detailed training log for students. Side benefit - I can keep notes to myself about how they are doing without the student seeing them. Only hit the major points in their logbooks. Have never seen this be an issue part 61 anywhere.

"manner acceptable to the administrator" does not mean student's paper logbook in every case.
 
jrh said:
I know what you're saying, and I agree, in principle. A pilot can't claim "ignorance is bliss" when it comes to regs.

But still, there's the real world, practical way of dealing with what the OP is dealing with. If he tells the student to cross out the previous entry and fly a new cross country, all that's going to do is draw attention to the fact that he broke a reg. If he leaves things the way they are, chances are high that nobody will ever know the difference. I'd say this advice applies to the majority of inadvertent reg-breaking that student pilots occasionally do.

Also, in the case you linked to above, I'd be curious to find out how the FAA found out about the problem. From my experience, it's quite rare to have a student or reasonably competent instructor making an honest effort to follow the rules, then get smacked out of nowhere for not having every i dotted or t perfectly crossed.

Most of the time, it's somebody who really had it coming for a long time. They're either so incompetent that they're screwing up right and left, or so hazardous that other pilots are complaining to the feds about a situation. The case you cited, which involved numerous operations with NO endorsements sounds like such a case. The OP's case, of having one instance that was documented, but not fully or correctly, doesn't seem like something the feds would want to waste their time with, other than maybe an informal call to the instructor, cautioning him to be more careful in the future.

YMMV.
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Don't know. I discussed something recently off the record with a FSDO. I recently "inherited" a sport pilot applicant. This applicant's previous CFI was killed in a crash. The applicant went on his cross country getting a VOCO from the CFI who was out of town. CFI was killed before returning so he never signed the log book for the cross country. I asked if the cross country would count and was told that it not only would not count but if they found out who it was they would take certification action against him. Sounded pretty silly to me.
 
Blackhawk said:
No. The training must be documented. If a CFI makes an endorsement without the required training being documented he/she could run into trouble with the FAA. If the training is documented outside the logbook in a record folder, for example, you should be okay.
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That's what I meant. Perhaps the training is documented elsewhere...?
 
amjon said:
True when you're talking about a private pilot, but this would be referring to a pre-solo STUDENT. If their instructor tells them they are fine, they really have nothing else to base their understanding on and really shouldn't be expected to have to know on their own what their instructor obviously never taught them.
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again, it doesn't matter. student pilots are still responsible to adhere to the regs just as the CFI is. That is why it is important to find a competent CFI for your training. I have an example and will tell you about it in PM if you would like...
 
Blackhawk said:
Don't know. I discussed something recently off the record with a FSDO. I recently "inherited" a sport pilot applicant. This applicant's previous CFI was killed in a crash. The applicant went on his cross country getting a VOCO from the CFI who was out of town. CFI was killed before returning so he never signed the log book for the cross country. I asked if the cross country would count and was told that it not only would not count but if they found out who it was they would take certification action against him. Sounded pretty silly to me.
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Sounds, to me, like a good reason not to consult the FSDO on such matters ;)

But seriously, what did you expect them to say? "Sure, both the CFI and student clearly, knowingly, broke a reg, but we don't care. It'll be just fine." They have to act tough because there's no other option. It's like asking a cop if they think it's ok to cruise 75 in a 65. No matter if it is or isn't, they're obligated to give you a certain answer.

If you had assumed the trip still counted and sent the guy for a checkride, chances are high that the DPE wouldn't even notice, let alone cause trouble over it. I've never seen a DPE cross check solo endorsements versus individual flights.

Just for the record, I'm not advocating any intentional rule breaking. I'm a very "by the book" pilot and instructor. These scenarios simply would not happen with my clients because that's not how I operate. But at the same time, I try to be realistic about handling these things when they pop up. A lot of times it's better to ask for forgiveness later than permission now.
 
jrh said:
Sounds, to me, like a good reason not to consult the FSDO on such matters ;)

But seriously, what did you expect them to say? "Sure, both the CFI and student clearly, knowingly, broke a reg, but we don't care. It'll be just fine." They have to act tough because there's no other option. It's like asking a cop if they think it's ok to cruise 75 in a 65. No matter if it is or isn't, they're obligated to give you a certain answer.

If you had assumed the trip still counted and sent the guy for a checkride, chances are high that the DPE wouldn't even notice, let alone cause trouble over it. I've never seen a DPE cross check solo endorsements versus individual flights.

Just for the record, I'm not advocating any intentional rule breaking. I'm a very "by the book" pilot and instructor. These scenarios simply would not happen with my clients because that's not how I operate. But at the same time, I try to be realistic about handling these things when they pop up. A lot of times it's better to ask for forgiveness later than permission now.
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The problem is if he goes for his check ride, this is discovered and passed on to the FSDO. I could have then faced questions on my endorsement for his check ride. No thanks. Personally I just wanted the guy to redo his cross country but he asked me to check so I did. I was left cleaning up some things from a CFI who was a good instructor, but not the best at keeping records and dotting his "i"s and crossing his "t"s.
 
Blackhawk said:
The problem is if he goes for his check ride, this is discovered and passed on to the FSDO. I could have then faced questions on my endorsement for his check ride. No thanks. Personally I just wanted the guy to redo his cross country but he asked me to check so I did. I was left cleaning up some things from a CFI who was a good instructor, but not the best at keeping records and dotting his "i"s and crossing his "t"s.
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Fair enough. I don't think you did anything wrong, just different from the way I would have handled it.
 
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