Congress agrees to 1500hr min for airlines.
- Thread starter darthpanda
- Start date
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
KLB
Well-Known Member
Um, no to both...? (If you're saying a puppymill is a college..)
I don't think that colleges make better pilots. Colleges do go much more in depth than most pt.61 courses. Having spent a year at a 4 year avit school, I have seen this first hand. They teach CRM, ADM, Flight Safety, Human Factors, Weather, Aerodynamics, etc., MUCH more in depth than a part 61 course. Like Emu, I am definitely not saying that you must go to an aviation college. In fact, I am generally not a person who will defend a avit degree. However, I do see the value in that degree, and it's not something you can gain from CFIing for a thousand hours. Snort.
@ BobDDuck
I am know there are some great pilots out there who have gone pt. 61 (me being one of them<"great pilot," will check ego..>), but there are also lots of great pilots coming from colleges. Having gone to an aviation college, and taken aviation courses, I have seen first hand how much farther in depth they go into the coursework. I don't think that all of what they teach could be learned through time spent as a CFI. Would all your FO's be able to tell you how air moves across a swept wing? Or why it moves that way? Do they understand the stall characteristics of a swept wing aircraft? I'm sure not all avit college grads do, but I'm sure a higher percentage of college grads understand that stuff, than pt. 61 grads.
I don't think going to an avit school will give you better stick and rudder skills. I'm just considering the ADM and safety aspects of going to a university.. I've said it already, but there is no amount of flight time that can make up for a lack in CRM, ADM, Safety etc..
I'm willing to bet you a six pack of your favorite beer that your arguement will "180" by the time you get to 3000hrs. Everyday that you will go out and fly you will see something unique, interesting, or different. Experience comes in handy when you start seeing and recognizing them from your past experiences and you know the proper inputs to come out with good results.
I'm a product of an aviation university ( a pretty darn good one) and can tell you that although being academically sound is good, it doesn't trump experience. It's like hitting a baseball. We can sit down and have a in dept discussion on how deceptive they are and how to approach hitting one. You may gain a lot of useful knowlede about it. But you'll have no idea whats going until you're standing in that batter's box and the pitchers hurling some nasty ones at you. It definitely would be a bad idea to go from slow pitch softball to a pitcher throwing the high heat at eye level. There has to be something in between to give you a better chance of being successful.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Without basic stick and rudder skills, you are right. But I'm more comparing average vs exceptional. In my almost 3 years of doing this, I have only flown with one person with what I would consider poor stick and rudder skills. He's one of the more notorious captains that everyone knows about. But when people talk about what he has done that has scared them, its not "he almost screwed up that crosswind landing" its the poor decisions he makes and the temper that he has.
I think what gets me about your post (nothing personal) is the way you make it sound like being a good stick is the most important thing about being a professional aviator, a sentiment that I strongly disagree with.
Being a good stick and having good systems knowledge is what will save you when technology and every other modern crutch fails you.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%. Being a good stick is important and it certainly shouldn't be ignored. But being a better than average stick does not help you make better decisions, but making better decisions can help you not have to use your exceptional flying skills.
Again, not saying that being a good stick is not important. Everyone should strive to be a well rounded pilot, but on a day to day situation I'd rather be with Iceman than Maverick...to use a gay top gun reference.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
"A good pilot is one who uses his superior judgment to stay out of situtations that require his superior skills"
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Exactly. That was the adage I had in mind, but couldn't remember it word for word so I decided not to butcher it
You need all of them.
You can be a great stick, and make crappy decisions due to a lack of knowledge, skill, experience, or any combination thereof.
You can be a great decision maker, but if you cant make those decisions translate to aircraft control, then it doesn't matter.
You can be a great systems manager, but when the crutches fail and you're left with nothing of technology to manage, then that doesn't matter.
You need all of them complementing each other.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Nothing is taken personally. I merely believe that good judgement, aside from normal common sense, is acquired through experience. You would have to prove to me that someone from an aviation university background has better on average judgement than someone who went to an FBO at X hours in order for me to accept your argument that aviation universities should have an exemption. I don't think you can, because I think a 300 hour pilot has the same amount of good judgement as any other 300 hour pilot.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Ah, my bad. I'm not arguing that universities should have an excemption, or that going to one gives you a free pass on experience. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people who discount an education from an aviation university, and that's not right. Guess I wasn't making myself all that clear.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I discount it in the sense that I think it isn't necessary, and moreover is probably unwise to have a degree that is useless in anything other than aviation and moreover that people coming from engineering or math or science backgrounds are probably more balanced academically. That's all.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Certainly isn't the only way to get where you want to go, but I don't think anyone who has studied 4 years of math is any better off in the cockpit. Be both have the same general education requirements to graduate.
As far as not being a very good backup degree, probably true. But if I had studied something else and had to fall back on that degree, how out of the loop would I be 10-15 years with no experience in that field? Certainly isn't a golden ticket.
All of which brings me back to attitude and motivation are worth a lot more than a certain kind of training, big aviation school or part 61...
Which has been my poorly articulated point all along.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Ditto this. When I got my commercial, I had about 280 hours, and I thought I was ready for anything. When I hit 500 hours, I realized I wasn't. When I hit 900 hours, I figured I was ready for the airlines. After 100 hours in the right seat of an RJ, I was STILL catching up on some things. Even with almost 1500 hours in the left seat, I still learn stuff every day. Now I look back and realize how much of a burden *I* likely was on my captains. Not every low time guy is gonna be that way, but not every person is 6'5" and can play like LeBron James. You have the exceptional ones, and you have the ones that fall right in the average of where they should be at those hours. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But it's good to know your limitations. Most of the low time guys I've flown with and know (myself included) just don't know what they....don't know.
Knowing good ADM and CRM in a classroom setting is also completely different than putting it into practice on the flight deck. Low ceilings, blowing snow and a contaminated runway with a crosswind can be a little unnerving if you've never been there before. Having a 3 hour class in ADM from ERAU isn't really gonna do much.
popaviator
Well-Known Member
Well said... I myself had a recent experience that made myself realize that I wasn't ready for the 121 world just yet. I really love flight instructing and when I compare myself to a Captain of a major, I realize that I have a long and rewarding career ahead. It's important to enjoy what you are doing at this moment in time, rather than having the mindset of the grass is greener on the other side. For all you guys under 25...there's no rush! Enjoy the job you have and do a damn good job at it and I guarantee you'll stop focusing on time and start focusing on your performance.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Well said... I myself had a recent experience that made myself realize that I wasn't ready for the 121 world just yet. I really love flight instructing and when I compare myself to a Captain of a major, I realize that I have a long and rewarding career ahead. It's important to enjoy what you are doing at this moment in time, rather than having the mindset of the grass is greener on the other side. For all you guys under 25...there's no rush! Enjoy the job you have and do a damn good job at it and I guarantee you'll stop focusing on time and start focusing on your performance.
That's actually the most important thing I learned in college.
From the time I finished high school I was focused so much on getting to where I am now. Now that I'm here...well...I kinda wish I would have slowed down to enjoy the ride a bit more.
My college experience wasn't nearly as fun as it should have been. If I had it to do over again, I certainly would have done it differently. I would have started my flight training immediately after high school. Upon finishing that I would have gone to a college somewhere that I actually wanted to live. This would have allowed me to work as a CFI while I was in school and have a lot more fun than I did.
My major regret isn't getting an aviation degree, but thinking that it was the only way to go so much that I went to school in the middle of nowhere. I moved from living in Germany to North Dakota. Mix in the fact that my parents were living in Tokyo the whole time, and that was a huge amount of culture shock.
That being said, the route I took got me to where I wanted to be. One could argue that it even got me there faster than had I taken a different route. I'm not usually one to toot my schools horn, but deserved or not, I've interviewed for three aviation jobs and been offered jobs at all three. In two of them there wasn't much of a technical interview because "you went to UND, you know what you're doing". While I don't agree with this statement, it certainly did help. In the third (my current company) there were multiple comments about the hiring department liking students from my school.
Knowing this, I still would have done things differently. Not because I find my education lacking, but because I wish I would have enjoyed my college experience as much as most.