Common vs Private Carriage!!

MidlifeFlyer,

Your examples are great, you really listed some valid answers to this endless question. I feel like its nothing by a gray matter and the FAA sometimes doesn't even know exactly what they mean by it! But thanks for the info i will definitely use it when training commercial students i may get!
 
emilh1 said:
Hi guys! Sorry that I havent been posting here. But thanks for all the input, I do really apriciate it and it will hopefully stick for my "ride".
My EOC examinator gave me this paper, wich is from a known aviation laywer.
Hope it will help to guys: http://www.whitfieldlaw.com/documents/resources/Part_91_v_1172184043843.pdf
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Gotta disagree with one line in the article:
A little-known fact is this: a pilot with a commercial certificate, and/or Class II medical,
who does not have a flight operation licensed with a Part 135 certificate, is, at all times,
exercising the rights and privileges of a private pilot under Part 91.
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A little too simplistic since, in addition to the 119.1 exceptions, there's corporate flying and ferrying aircraft, neither of which require a Part 135 certificate and all of which require a commercial pilot certificate with at least a Class II medical.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Depends on what for.

From the FAA's standpoint, you can certainly rent an airplane to fly you and your friend to the Superbowl and share costs or even to use it for local air tours, pipeline patrol, and any of the other things a commercial pilot can do without there being an operating certificate under 119.1.

The rental issue comes into play with something the FAA calls "operational control."

If a Peter Passenger owns an airplane and pays you to fly him around, all you are being paid for is piloting. You're not considered to be in charge of the operation (now there's a bad word in the FAR - the meaning of "operator" really does morph with the context). And no operator certificate is required because the the owner/passenger has "operational control" meaning that, except for the flight safety-related issues that come with being PIC, it's the owner that decides what the airplane is used for, where it goes, and when. You're really just a paid pilot and nothing more.

But if you, the pilot, own the airplane, you have "operational control" and the passenger becomes "carriage" - a no-no if you're receiving compensation unless you fit into 119.1, 61.113 or some other reg.

The rental issue is this - clearly, if the pilot rents the airplane, the pilot has "operational control" while the airplane is in his possession and control for the term of the rental.

But what if the passenger rents it?

Then the question is whether the rental looks, smells or quacks like the passenger or the pilot really is the one with operational control. And the FAA is going to look real close. For just one question, is that FBO really transferring responsibility for the airplane (operational control) to a non-pilot guy off the street or to the pilot who has met the FBO's checkout qualifications?

That's why rentals are problematic - it's going to be the rare rental that really qualifies as a transfer of operational control to the passenger, not to the pilot.

Getting a headache yet? You should be. The operational control issue gives headaches to lawyers who work with it in the context of aircraft leasing and setting up business flight departments.
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So, say for instance an IR rated PPL wanted to take a trip, but the weather was below his personal mins. Can he rent a plane, have a comm non CFI or II fly with him and pay him for his time while the PPL does the actual flying? I would think yes, since he cant log the time as he is not a CFII nor is he a required crew member. Do you think that is accurate?

Also, many corporate outfits are part 91 operators as I understand. So the airplane owner, the corporation, has operational control, the pilots just are paid to fly. With that, they, the corporation and the pilot, could never fly any none corporate employees for compensation? For instance the CEO of Ford couldnt say to the CEO of GM, I am flying to Washington, Ill fly you there on our jet if you pay me half the costs. Correct?
 
Matt13C said:
So, say for instance an IR rated PPL wanted to take a trip, but the weather was below his personal mins. Can he rent a plane, have a comm non CFI or II fly with him and pay him for his time while the PPL does the actual flying? I would think yes, since he cant log the time as he is not a CFII nor is he a required crew member. Do you think that is accurate?
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Logging has nothing to do with any of this discussion.

I really haven't given much thought to the issues of cost where Pilot A "hires" Pilot B to act as PIC on a flight where Pilot A rented the airplane. My impression is that it's probably okay - the renter here probably does have operational control - but I can think of circumstances where it might not so hesitate giving even an "in general" answer.

Also, many corporate outfits are part 91 operators as I understand. So the airplane owner, the corporation, has operational control, the pilots just are paid to fly. With that, they, the corporation and the pilot, could never fly any none corporate employees for compensation? For instance the CEO of Ford couldnt say to the CEO of GM, I am flying to Washington, Ill fly you there on our jet if you pay me half the costs. Correct?
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That's probably right. Corporate flight departments generally operate under Part 91 and can't sell transportation services to others.

Here's the problem: One of the reasons that the knowledge and practical test questions in this area are so shallow is that it really is complicated - so much so that the way an agreement is put together can make a difference between what requires an operating certificate and what does not.

Check out these two FAA Chief Counsel interpretation letters that deal a bit with these issues. It will probably give you a taste of what happens once you get beyond Joe and Mike going to the Superbowl in Joe's airplane.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2007/Fabian.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...erpretations/data/interps/2009/Douglas_Jr.pdf
 
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