Commercial "Solo" Requirements

At ATP PHX I went to my MEI check-ride with June Bonesteel. She went over my logbooks line by line, she came to my commercial cross country line, and then went to airnav.com and checked the distance from the "Original departure point" and it only came to 247 miles! 3 miles short! My instructor thought he solved that problem by flying to another town first, but we both missed the word "original" when planning this out.

She refused to take the checkride even though I already had my commercial license, so ATP shipped me to JAX where I took it and passed.

I have seen things like this happen several time in the last few months. One guy got denied his multi add on after the examiner discovered that he was never endorsed for the complex. Woops. Now the examiner that did the initial commercial is in the HOT seat for issuing the original. I still haven't heard if the FSDO is going to let the guy keep his single commercial.

Why did ATP just send you to somebody else instead of fixing the original problem? If you didn't legally complete the required cross country then your Commercial pilot certificate is by default invalid, and the examiner in JAX should be investigated.
 
I have seen things like this happen several time in the last few months. One guy got denied his multi add on after the examiner discovered that he was never endorsed for the complex. Woops. Now the examiner that did the initial commercial is in the HOT seat for issuing the original. I still haven't heard if the FSDO is going to let the guy keep his single commercial.

Why did ATP just send you to somebody else instead of fixing the original problem? If you didn't legally complete the required cross country then your Commercial pilot certificate is by default invalid, and the examiner in JAX should be investigated.

Maybe because airnav.com isn't a legal resource?
 
How then can you legally be the PIC of a complex aircraft during the initial commercial checkride?

Because a checkride is listed as an exemption to the regulation that requires the endorsement in the first place:

14 CFR 61.31(k)

k) Exceptions. (1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type-certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered-lifts, powered parachutes, or weight-shift-control aircraft.
(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—
(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;
(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;
 
Because a checkride is listed as an exemption to the regulation that requires the endorsement in the first place:

14 CFR 61.31(k)

k) Exceptions. (1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type-certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered-lifts, powered parachutes, or weight-shift-control aircraft.
(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—
(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;
(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;
Um, tgrayson...

an endorsement is not a rating.
 
Who said it was?

However, the endorsement requirements are "rating limitations".
You're probably right, but I've never seen it interpreted that way (of course, I've never seen it interpreted any other way either ;) )

Correction: As I recall, the disowned Part 61 FAQ said that the training and endorsement requirements in 61.31 were =not= "rating limitations."
 
You're probably right, but I've never seen it interpreted that way

Well, the term "rating limitations" isn't actually defined, so the normal rules of English should apply, and the requirement for these endorsements is surely a limitation on the SEL rating, wouldn't you say?

The FAQs have stated that these endorsements aren't required for checkrides, which suggests that it is/was their understanding is that these *are* rating limitation. For example:
QUESTION: Per § 61.47(b), it reads the examiner is not the PIC. Does the applicant have to have received the required solo training and endorsements, as per § 61.87, even if during the training the applicant always had the instructor on board?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.31(d)(3); Again, § 61.87 does not apply. For your scenario requiring a solo flight from one to another airport the endorsement cited in my Answer 1 above would be required. If no solo flight were involved to get to the examiner, the endorsement would not really be required since § 61.31(k)(2)(i) exempts applicants from the requirements of § 61.31 when taking a practical test given by an examiner. This allows the applicant to act as pilot-in-command during the practical test.
 
Tgrasen, do you really not endorse your initial commercial students for the complex when you send them for the practical test, or are you just arguing this case for the sake of arguing?
 
I have seen things like this happen several time in the last few months. One guy got denied his multi add on after the examiner discovered that he was never endorsed for the complex. Woops. Now the examiner that did the initial commercial is in the HOT seat for issuing the original. I still haven't heard if the FSDO is going to let the guy keep his single commercial.

Why did ATP just send you to somebody else instead of fixing the original problem? If you didn't legally complete the required cross country then your Commercial pilot certificate is by default invalid, and the examiner in JAX should be investigated.


ATP is really tight... they wouldn't give me a couple more hours if they didnt have to. Besides I had another flight that far exceeded the mileage requirements but I wrote in the remarks section that I was on an IFR flight plan. My examiner said it needed to be VFR, so we called the FSDO and they said there was nothing in the FARS that said I couldn't fly it IFR. She still refused to take the ride and the FSDO offered another Examiner but ATP said heck with it and sent me to JAX. That's when ATP stopped doing CFI initials in PHX for that reason.

I see no reason the Examiner in Jax should be investigated, I had my commercial licence, His job was see that Im qualified for my CFI... not every rating I ever took in my life.

I would be left to assume they at least verified with a plotter.

BTW we tried a plotter but my route went through 3 different sectionals and only being 3 miles short it was impossible to determine exactly how many miles it was.
 
do you really not endorse your initial commercial students for the complex when you send them for the practical test, or are you just arguing this case for the sake of arguing?

I am merely pointing out that the DPE was wrong to deny the ME add-on candidate his rating.

I see no reason the instructor should withhold the endorsement; however, I don't give ME add-on candidates the endorsement required to operate as PIC of a non-rated aircraft, and it's not required due to the same exemption.
 
I am merely pointing out that the DPE was wrong to deny the ME add-on candidate his rating.

I see no reason the instructor should withhold the endorsement; however, I don't give ME add-on candidates the endorsement required to operate as PIC of a non-rated aircraft, and it's not required due to the same exemption.

there was a whole laundry list of other issues causing the examiner to refuse the ride as well. Do the ME add on students you work with come to you with the complex endorsement? If not, then what do you do?

Lastly, back to the issue of the 247nm cross country. The pilot should have logged the first leg (the really short one) as a separate flight, then done the 250nm and 2 other airports with the second airport as there origin.

There is a 'not very reputable' school that happens to be right next door to us that sends their students to San Diego (~100 south). Then there long cross country begins there, where they fly to an airport about 150 miles north of home, then they come back. this gives them the 250 mile leg. They do this to keep the planes close to home so when they break down or burn up (really) they are easier to retrieve. I am not sure if they are still doing it this way, they had one student miss San Diego all together and fly deep into Mexico. Woops!
 
Well, the term "rating limitations" isn't actually defined, so the normal rules of English should apply, and the requirement for these endorsements is surely a limitation on the SEL rating, wouldn't you say?
Nope. If I were starting from scratch with the regulatory language, I would say that just as "ratings" are things that appear under "ratings" on the back of a pilot certificate, "limitations" on ratings are things that appear under "limitations" on the back of a pilot certificate. "Passenger Carrying Is Prohibited" and "Limited To Center Thrust" are ratings limitations, not things that don't appear anywhere.

The FAQs have stated that these endorsements aren't required for checkrides, which suggests that it is/was their understanding is that these *are* rating limitation.
OTOH, the FAQ also saids:

QUESTION: §61.31(k)(2) says "The rating limitations of this section do not apply to . . . "

What about the additional training requirements of §61.31 for complex airplanes [i.e., §#61.31(e)]? high performance airplanes [i.e., §61.31(f)]? pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes [i.e., §61.31(g)]? type specific training [i.e., §#61.31(h)]? tail wheel airplanes [i.e., §61.31(i)]? gliders [i.e., §61.31(j)]? I read it to say that the paragraphs referring to category, class, and type rating limitations do not apply, but the paragraphs referring to additional training requirements do apply. For example, the additional training required to operate a tail-wheel airplane that holds an experimental airworthiness certificate. The pilot is Airplane Single Engine Land rated, but is not tail-wheel endorsed. Must a pilot who does not have a tailwheel airplane endorsement and who wants to act as a PIC of a tailwheel airplanes that holds an experimental airworthiness certificate is he required to comply with the additional training and endorsement requirements of §61.31(i)?

ANSWER: Ref. §61.31(k)(2); The additional training requirements specified in §61.31 are required to be complied with. The exception language specified in §61.31(k)(2) addresses the “ . . . rating limitations of this section do not apply . . .” emphasis added: “rating limitations.” The rule only excepts the “rating limitations” of this section, not the additional training requirements of §61.31.
Therefore, if a person does not have a logbook endorsement to operate a tailwheel airplane, or who has not met the requirements of §61.31(i)(2) [i.e., previous logged PIC time in a tailwheel airplane prior to April 15, 1991], then that person may not act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane regardless of the kind of airworthiness certificate that has been issued to the airplane.​
(my emphasis added)

...which suggests that it is/was their understanding is that these *are not* rating limitation.
 
"limitations" on ratings are things that appear under "limitations" on the back of a pilot certificate.

Well, none of those things appear in this section, which would make 61.63(k)(2) irrelevant if that were the only definition.

The rule only excepts the “rating limitations” of this section, not the additional training requirements of §61.31.
Interesting. That certainly contradicts the FAQ I quoted. Your text does not appear in change 20 of the FAQ's, because I did search for "rating limitations." What version does it come from?
 
Interesting. That certainly contradicts the FAQ I quoted. Your text does not appear in change 20 of the FAQ's, because I did search for "rating limitations." What version does it come from?
It's in the one that is currently on the Summit CD which I believe includes change 22.

Contradictions in the FAQ are nothing new. There were a good number that tended to be result oriented - an emphasis on "I want this answer so I'll interpret the words to say it" rather than "Let's see what the words say about this question." The result was that you can't necessarily apply the "reasoning" used to answer one question as a guide to answer another.

My WAG is that this was one of the reasons for its demise.
 
My WAG is that this was one of the reasons for its demise.

I'd be interested in reading the preamble to this regulation. Looks like the (k) paragraph was added in 1991, originally as (h). The Federal Register website doesn't go back quite that far.

The DPE Handbook does not instruct examiners to look for these endorsements, although it does say they should ensure a private candidate has his solo endorsements.
 
I have the preambles going back to 1990 (Summit sends it free on request, although they may bring it back to the standard disc since they are going from CD to DVD) and find nothing.
 
I have the preambles going back to 1990 (Summit sends it free on request, although they may bring it back to the standard disc since they are going from CD to DVD) and find nothing.

I asked for it, but never received it. I think they just provide "selected preambles", but am not sure how they make their selection.
 
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