I got to admit, I just read all of this now and had one comment here. I do the exact same thing but use predetermined specific numbers, ie I set a hard deck for straight ahead/pre determined field/return to airport and turn direction for that turn based on the conditions of that day. That way if I lose an engine I don't have any debating, "can I do it, maybe, ya sure I got this," going on.
Commercial Pretakeoff brief
- Thread starter tilley_205
- Start date
I got to admit, I just read all of this now and had one comment here. I do the exact same thing but use predetermined specific numbers, ie I set a hard deck for straight ahead/pre determined field/return to airport and turn direction for that turn based on the conditions of that day. That way if I lose an engine I don't have any debating, "can I do it, maybe, ya sure I got this," going on.
I use altitudes for when to make a turn back (power off 360), which is determined by several variables. I don't like using an altitude for determining if I have enough runway to land and stop on or not.
On a 12,000' runway, that could be at 1000' or depending on DA and climb performance that could be at 300' or higher. Same with a 5000' runway, etc.
-mini
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Most piston singles won't let you turn back at all. Ever. 1000' won't do it if you're on a straight out departure because you're moving forward as your climbing, and if you've got any weight onboard at all you're not going to be climbing enough to make a turn back. In piston singles, 99.9% of the time the only option you have is "lower the nose, and land at the closest available place infront of you."
Depends on the plane, conditions, weight, climb profile, runway length, obstacles, etc., etc.
-mini
ppragman
No pasa nada.
This is true, but for the most part, that 180 degree turn, ain't gonna happen. Really this topic belongs in another thread, "180 degree turn or not?" Frankly, I think even briefing it is a bad idea. If you plan on trying to make the turn back (and you don't really have any hard data because 180 turn with a departure engine failure isn't something published in the manual, you're just shooting from the hip) and you plan on making it at 1000' AGL, then what's to stop you from trying at 900'AGL in the heat of the moment? This is one of those "technique versus procedure" debates, but personally, I don't think you've got a snowballs chance in hell unless you're flying a powered Glider, or taking off into a 50kt headwind in a 172.
Give yourself more of an option than trying to perform a maximum pilot performance maneuver right off the end of the runway when you still probably haven't figured out whats going on. I'd much rather go into a field, or onto a street and total the airplane then try to make it back to the runway and crash-and-burn when I hit the fence. A lot (and I mean a lot) of times its not going to be as easy as "engine FAILURE!" its going to be a power loss, or some other abnormality. Hell, you may even get a reduction in power with all of your engine instruments and guages showing everything as good. Immediate 180 to the runway isn't even necessarily the best idea in those cases. That whole option goes away if the wx is IFR, or Special VFR.
Airplane like the caravan might do it if lightly loaded because you can feather the prop. Airplane like the 207 or the Cherokee 6/Saratoga, or the 172 with a load or the Lance, or the 206 (non-turbo'd, the turbo'd ones might climb a bit better, no?) will not in my experience. Ymmv. The only airplane I've tried it in where it worked was a cessna 152 with the sparrowhawk conversion, and that would get you back as low as 500'AGL if you made the turn at the exact instant of power loss. Barry Schiff wrote an article about this where he flight tested several different singles, taking off, hitting some arbitrary number then cranking and banking to get back. It didn't work most of the time. Having seen the results of trying to turn back first hand (smoking hole in the ground) I'd recommend against that policy all the time.
Well, it doesn't have to be a 180. Is there a taxiway long enough I can do a 90 and land on it? Or maybe I'd have to do a complete 360 at min-sink...possibly land on an intersecting/converging runway. Have you practiced your power-off 360 lately?
There's too many variables involved to not brief it. Would I teach a 20 hour student pilot to do it? Nope. They (probably) don't understand 1/8 of the variables involved yet as they're just getting to the point where they can safely navigate around a rectangular-ish traffic pattern and crash on to some portion of the runway while maintaining usability of the aircraft.
Having seen people successfully do 270s to intersecting runways in several different singles (under simulated engine failure situations), I'm pretty confident that could probably be done.
You have to take each scenario as they come at you. Arbitrarily saying "you can do it" is just as bad as arbitrarily saying "no you can't", IMO.
*edit*
You also should be briefing when to pull the chute.
-mini
I have not flown a plane to date that I have not tested this in. My test includes 3 separate attempts from a Vy climb speed. In one I do a standard 30 degree bank turn, which in a 172 is 400 feet to accomplish the 180. I then do a 45 degree turn, in a 172 that lands at about 300. Finally I do a maximum performance, which I practice often but likely will never do it in the event of an engine failure which I can perform in less than 100 feet every time. Thus my safe altitude in a 172 is 600' AGL, to account for 3-5 seconds freeze up time.
By maximum performance I mean when I pull the engine I pull back to get to stalled flight as quick as possible, drop the wing to near 60 degrees, stomp on the rudder and hold the aircraft right at stall around the turn. Any GA (smaller the easier of course, but I have done it in a seminole no problem) aircraft can do it and it is a great way to make a 180 w/o altitude loss but it obviously has its risks. I keep it in the bag for one of those really weird airports where if you don't turn back your landing on some cliff or something of the sort.
I don't know how others do it but I was failed on sim lessons for not sticking to my marks and it was repeatedly beaten into me, fly what you brief period. period. If you haven't considered this option on the ground than you will have to consider in the air, why not be prepared ahead of time. Some military fellas on here I am sure can speak to the "be prepared for everything you can be" philosophy.
Mini: Why do you keep saying 360? I teach it to students with 5 hours. Their first solo out to the practice area I require them to bring back power off 180 practice data I explained above, at least 3 attempts at each set up 30/45 degrees. (With the exception of the maximum performance.)
At best a 180 isn't going to line you up with the opposite direction runway. If you want to land into the wind and minimize ground speed, you'll need a 360 degree turn. A 180 degree turn is going to have you going off to the side of the opposite direction runway and (possibly) screaming downwind.
Not my idea of a good time...but it might be necessary. That's why we brief it.
-mini