Commercial Pilot Privileges Part 2

Fly_Unity

Well-Known Member
Scenario:

I'm a 135 Pilot, We got a call to look for lost cows. Im booked up. A guy who works for our company (not as a pilot) has a wet Commercial ASEL. Can he do this trip? Does he need to be on a drug testing program. Were having a hypothetical case here trying to understand FAR 119.1
 
Scenario:

I'm a 135 Pilot, We got a call to look for lost cows. Im booked up. A guy who works for our company (not as a pilot) has a wet Commercial ASEL. Can he do this trip? Does he need to be on a drug testing program. Were having a hypothetical case here trying to understand FAR 119.1

No idea where the drug testing comes from. No, unless it's company policy, which has nothing to do with the fars.

As a 91 pilot, I can go look for a rancher's lost cows all day long, no need for a 135 cert for that. If the farmer comes with, it's sightseeing or something along those lines. IMO very part 91.
 
the drug testing thing comes from part 136: air tours and sight seeing.

i think this situation falls under part 91 and any commercial pilot with appropriate cat/class/type can do the job.

part 119.1e4iii specifically excludes "aerial photography or survey" which cow counting seems like to me.
 
I guess my question is: Can this guy take passenger(s) (cow owner) and do this? Or does he have to be solo. If he has passengers, does this mean its a scenic tour and now has to be operated with a drug testing program or LOA?
 
I guess my question is: Can this guy take passenger(s) (cow owner) and do this? Or does he have to be solo. If he has passengers, does this mean its a scenic tour and now has to be operated with a drug testing program or LOA?

25SM limit for sightseeing, or pt135 charter (and drug test program required either way). Very simple... He is being hired by the cattle owner and therefore is carrying a passenger for hire.

Now, if he goes up solo then it is pt.91 because he is not carrying any persons or property.
 
25SM limit for sightseeing, or pt135 charter (and drug test program required either way). Very simple... He is being hired by the cattle owner and therefore is carrying a passenger for hire.

Now, if he goes up solo then it is pt.91 because he is not carrying any persons or property.
if he's instrument rated I believe it's 50sm also
 
We're basically talking about whether he needs to be operating under a commercial operator's certificate. Look into 119.1 at the list of exceptions. A scenic tour beginning and ending at the same airport is restricted to a 25-nm radius of the airport. An aerial survey or photo mission is not limited to 25-nm. Bring a camera and take a photo of the lost cows when you find them, or count them in your "survey".

Now, whether or not your plane is restricted by the 135 operator's certificate is another question.
 
When I finished up my Comm my examiner made sure to point out to me that if you are doing a commercial op. in YOUR plane then no, you can not take a passenger for hire. Just flying around looking for the cows would, as most others said before, be surveying. Now if you do use it as sight seeing ops then you need to be on a drug test, with in 25-sm of the originating field.

If you really really want to take the farmer up I have heard of some people taking someone up on a 'discovery flight', but they were CFI and signed a sheet of paper or logbook.
 
This comes into all the fun that is "Holding Out". Look up AC 120-12A discussing Common Carriage vs Private Carriage. In this case, I think it would be ultimately safe to argue that the farmer came to your company because you had airplanes and pilots and not because you offer cow-finding flights. The farmer is not asking for a charter flight and you don't "hold out" your cattle search services. Therefore you could consider this flight private-carriage-for-hire. Something that can be done without being on a commercial operators certificate and something any commercial pilot with a commercially capable aircraft (100-hour, etc) can do.

The AC defines common carriage as: (1) a holding out of a willingness to (2) transport persons or property (3) from place to place (4) for compensation. This scenario does not meet (1) or (3).

Again, this doesn't answer whether your part 135 aircraft can be used for this purpose, but that's something specific to your operator's certificate and not the regs.
 
Again, this doesn't answer whether your part 135 aircraft can be used for this purpose, but that's something specific to your operator's certificate and not the regs.
I think, even though hes not a pilot for the 135 op., he still can use the aircraft. I know there is a flight school that rents out a 182 that they also have a 135 ticket for and fly pax on the side.
 
This comes into all the fun that is "Holding Out". Look up AC 120-12A discussing Common Carriage vs Private Carriage. In this case, I think it would be ultimately safe to argue that the farmer came to your company because you had airplanes and pilots and not because you offer cow-finding flights. The farmer is not asking for a charter flight and you don't "hold out" your cattle search services. Therefore you could consider this flight private-carriage-for-hire. Something that can be done without being on a commercial operators certificate and something any commercial pilot with a commercially capable aircraft (100-hour, etc) can do.

The AC defines common carriage as: (1) a holding out of a willingness to (2) transport persons or property (3) from place to place (4) for compensation. This scenario does not meet (1) or (3).
Extremely common misconception - that so-called "private carriage" does not require an operator's certificate. It does. AC 120-12A is both misleading and antiquated.

Aside from that, so far anyway, I have not seen the FAA ever apply the supposed "test" in 120-12A to say that a specific passenger-carrying operation did not require an operating certiicate unless it's one of the exceptions in 119.1.

Or, as FSIMS says in para 2-127,

==============================
B. Not Common Carriage. An applicant is not engaged in common carriage if he does not meet the above requirement. Operations not involving common carriage include the following definitions or exceptions. These definitions or exceptions are contained in part 119 and in sections of 14 CFR Part 91 , General Operating and Flight Rules.
1) Non-common carriage involves the carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire but there is no holding out. Non common carriage operations require the issuance of an operating certificate. Operations would be conducted under part 125 , Certification and Operations: Airplanes Having a Seating Capacity of 20 or More Passengers or a Maximum Payload Capacity of 6,000 Pounds or More; and Rules Governing Persons on Board Such Aircraft; or part 135 , depending on the type of aircraft, seating configuration, and payload capacity.

2) Private carriage involves the carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire with limitations on the number of contracts. The carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire under a contractual business arrangement between the operator and another person or organization, which did not result from the operator’s holding out or offering service is considered to be private carriage. (In this situation, the customer seeks an operator to perform the desired service and enters into an exclusive, mutual agreement as opposed to the operator seeking customers). Private carriage operations require the issuance of an operating certificate. Operations would be conducted under part 125 or part 135 , depending on the type of aircraft, seating configuration, and payload capacity.


Go to the last page of this PDF for an example of a private carriage operating certificate. http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v02 air op & agency cert/chapter 04/02_004_005.pdf
 
Well, looking at the Flight Standards Information Management System I certainly can't argue against the fact that those instructions say that this non-common, private carriage requires an operators certificate and would need to be conducted under Part 135 (assuming the size of the aircraft for the new commercial pilot and the type of operation). A little annoying how I feel misled by AC 120-12A but I'm sure it won't be the last time. Thanks for the info.

I think you could still safely do this operation under the exemption of 119.1 - Aerial work including photography and survey. I don't believe anyone will say that the pilot must be the one doing work besides flying the aircraft and that you can't take a photographer or surveyor with you.
 
I guess my question is: Can this guy take passenger(s) (cow owner) and do this? Or does he have to be solo. If he has passengers, does this mean its a scenic tour and now has to be operated with a drug testing program or LOA?

I say no in either case because he is still employed/contracted by a 135 operator, thereby requiring 500 hours for VFR.
 
I have a similar "lost cow" issue... The company I am working for knows that I am commercial pilot. I do not own my own aircraft. They have asked if I can rent a local aircraft to get to business locations faster than I currently drive. I will be "clocked in" and being paid by my company during these flights as I would if I were driving to the same destination. The client will be picking up the tab for all travel expenses as if I were driving. Since I am not flying people (other than me of course)or property and not holding out, but do not own the aircraft, can I fly to these destinations with just my commercial certificate, without angering the Gods located in OKC? I have read AC 120-12A but could not get a clear answer. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
 
I have a similar "lost cow" issue... The company I am working for knows that I am commercial pilot. I do not own my own aircraft. They have asked if I can rent a local aircraft to get to business locations faster than I currently drive. I will be "clocked in" and being paid by my company during these flights as I would if I were driving to the same destination. The client will be picking up the tab for all travel expenses as if I were driving. Since I am not flying people (other than me of course)or property and not holding out, but do not own the aircraft, can I fly to these destinations with just my commercial certificate, without angering the Gods located in OKC? I have read AC 120-12A but could not get a clear answer. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

I fly myself to a jobsite every day. Part 91.
 
I have a similar "lost cow" issue... The company I am working for knows that I am commercial pilot. I do not own my own aircraft. They have asked if I can rent a local aircraft to get to business locations faster than I currently drive. I will be "clocked in" and being paid by my company during these flights as I would if I were driving to the same destination. The client will be picking up the tab for all travel expenses as if I were driving. Since I am not flying people (other than me of course)or property and not holding out, but do not own the aircraft, can I fly to these destinations with just my commercial certificate, without angering the Gods located in OKC? I have read AC 120-12A but could not get a clear answer. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
Going to AC 120-12A is going too far and making it way too complicated. There may be details that could change the answer but, what you are describing is a pretty much a simple flight that a private pilot can do. 61.113(b).
 
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