Commercial Multi Initial

Rotor2Wing

Rotor2Wing

Unapologetically American
Ok so here's the situation. I have a buddy that's getting strung along pretty good by a CFI and/or school IMO. He's doing his initial commercial in a multi and the place he is flying out of says he needs 20hrs dual and 10hrs solo or supervised solo multi engine to meet the mins for the commercial. Now I have always seen initial multi programs that only do a combined 20hrs multi for the certificate. Off the top of my head Action Multi, Traverse Air, Skymates, and Dash Aviation all have the initial listed as a 20hr program plus check ride.

So are there any LOIs or suggestions to prove to this guys CFI/school that it only requires 20hrs of multi specific training?

MidlifeFlyer
 
or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor.

 
desertdog71 said:
or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor.
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Not sure what you are getting at but the above and supervised solo are intended to be interchangeable phrases meaning the same thing.
 
desertdog71 said:
That's the part everyone seems to get hung up on.
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Ok I see what you are saying. I am just talking from a time perspective. Basically I'm trying to prove to the guy you only have to have 20hrs of multi specific training for the commercial multi initial.
 
§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.​

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) Three hours in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.


(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

The 20 hours of training is the part in blue and red. The red instrument training is typically covered when he's finished with his IFR. All he needs to do with the instructor are the blue and green requirements.
 
Chief Captain said:
§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.​

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) Three hours in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.


(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

The 20 hours of training is the part in blue and red. The red instrument training is typically covered when he's finished with his IFR. All he needs to do with the instructor are the blue and green requirements.
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Right! That's exactly the way I read it too! Where this guys school and CFI are getting confused is 61.129 (3) where it says 20hrs dual. I can't get them to "get it" if you know what I mean.
 
FWIW, I think the school is correct for an original commercial certificate obtained in a multi (as opposed to a multi add-on to an existing commercial certificate). I parse the reg this way:

==============================
61.129(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

[1 and 2 skipped]​
​
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least -​
[list of tasks included in the 20 hours dual]​
​
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least -​
[list of tasks included in the 10 hours of solo or replacement-solo]​
==============================
I get 20 hours dual and 10 hours "solo." (FWIW, that's also what the old, orphaned Part 61 FAQ says; if there's some updated official interpretation, I don't know it.)
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
FWIW, I think the school is correct for an original commercial certificate obtained in a multi (as opposed to a multi add-on to an existing commercial certificate). I parse the reg this way:

==============================
61.129(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

[1 and 2 skipped]​
​
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least -​
[list of tasks included in the 20 hours dual]​
​
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least -​
[list of tasks included in the 10 hours of solo or replacement-solo]​
==============================
I get 20 hours dual and 10 hours "solo." (FWIW, that's also what the old, orphaned Part 61 FAQ says; if there's some updated official interpretation, I don't know it.)
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Well crap! If that's the case I cannot figure out how all these schools have been doing it in 20hrs for all these years with out getting busted!
 
61.129(b)(3) clearly states that only a portion of the areas of operation need to be done in a multi-engine airplane indicates that the balance of that training need not be done in a multi-engine airplane.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—​
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;​
 
mojo6911 said:
I posted something similar a few years back:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/multi-initial-commercial-hours-required.102939/

Here is a link that explains it, from the FAA's old FAQ:

http://www.boundvortex.com/Downloads/Multiengine Training FAQ61-13.pdf
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rframe said:
61.129(b)(3) clearly states that only a portion of the areas of operation need to be done in a multi-engine airplane indicates that the balance of that training need not be done in a multi-engine airplane.
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Yep, that makes sense. The only flight time that has to be in a multi are the 10 hours dual in a complex multi (which can include the 5 hours multi-instrument) and the 10-hour multi "solo." So, if you come into the program with the appropriate instructional endorsements in a single to cover the balance of the requirements, you only need a total of 20 hours.

Sorry, I forgot about the way that one gets counted.
 
Again thanks to all that contributed to this thread!

Does anyone by chance have a 20hrs Commercial Multi Syllabus they would be willing to share?
 
It used to be "10 hours as PIC in a muti" but now that nobody is going to let you solo a twin with very little twin time, they changed it to "10 hours as PIC or performing the duties as PIC while authorized by MEI".
 
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