Commercial / Instrument / Multi Chronogram

Z

zolp

Well-Known Member
Got my private ticket yesterday at 50.5 hours and I'll be starting my Commercial / Instrument / Multi part 61 as soon as I make a plan of action.

I'd like to get my licenses done with as little flight time as possible, as the brazilian aviation agency (ANAC) will not recognize the hours we fly outside of Brazil, but they will recognize the license by itself. I want to get it done with as little dual time, as much sim time and as fast and cheap as practical. The more time I take, the more I spend with lodging and things of that nature. In spirit of full disclosure, I'm only in the US to obtain my licenses.

Questions:
1)Should I get both commercial and instrument writtens out of the way ?
2)Should I start the commercial and then after I have the required 50 hours of PIC XC time (done for the commercial time building) start my IFR training ?
3)Of the 40 hours for the IFR ticket, 15 must be dual in a plane. Can the remaining 25 be done in a SIM like Frasca ?
4)What's your take on those 10-day accelerated IFR training programs ? Do you actually learn anything from them ? Can you atleast successfully pass the checkride after those 10 days ? It seems so gimmicky.
5)I'm confused with all the talk about private multi add on and commercial multi, etc. Can anybody clear this up ? I wouldn't want to do my private multi addon if all I need to do is do the 10 hours or so of complex for the commercial and get both licenses done in a single blow.

If anybody has any tips on making the commercial, instrument and multi licenses as affordable and as fast as possible, please chime in. I'm pretty confused with the overlapping requirements for those licenses.
 
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After some digging. I have a plan in the works:

Mixing Sim Dual/Solo, dual 172 IFR, and PIC XC in no particular order >
50H (30 solo/20 dual) Frasca 142P (Counting towards IR and CSEL)
20H 172 dual IFR
50H PIC XC (Counting towars CSEL time building)
Instrument checkride

then

60H Commercial Practice
5H dual day/night VFR XC
10-15H Private Multi Add-on VR/IR (counts as Complex time towards the CSEL)
PP Multi Add-on / CSEL checkride

Total 200H + 50.5H that I currently have = 250.5H plus checkrides
PIC 121.9H
Dual Commercial 20H
I'm pretty sure I'll do more than the minimum 20 hours of dual instruction required, but no more than 40 hours as I still need 100 hours as PIC.

Inputs are welcome !
 
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Do the tests right away if you're ready , don't wait.
Commercial part is fun.Instrument part can be demanding.
Strictly for getting the gist of instrument flying:
Get MS flight simulator and a joystick and practice on your own: holds, approaches, partial panel, instrument failures.
 
Focusing on cheap sometimes drags the process out longer. "Cheap" planes seem to be down for maintenance all the time. "Cheap" instructors sometimes quit halfway on you when they realize they can make more money doing something else.

I have a steady supply of customers that come to me after they wasted money on a "cheap" instructor or airplane. I'd focus more on reputation than price. I've got references and so should anyone that's in the business. ........Just saying
 
Thanks for the tips so far.
I do understand what you mean by focusing on cheap. God I'm tired of driving around and visiting lousy flight schools. I'm settled as of now. The rates for 172's are acceptable where I am at right now at 105$/hour. The 142p frasca is rated at 75$/hour with instruction. The lame part of this school is that although they charge instruction at 40$/hour, they charge rigorously 1 hour of pre and post flight training (no matter what) at 35$/hour. So the total is usually 145$ per hour plus 35$.
I've started my IFR training part 141. I won't be doing anything 'accelerated'. I'll be doing 10 hours of sim and the remaining of that should be in an aircraft. I do have a sim available that I can use whenever it's not being used by other students so I can practice with no additional cost as much as needed.
I'm taking my first IFR lesson only after I'm done with the ground school (jeppesen Instrument book).
I'll be eating IFR for breakfast and I've allowed myself 45 to 60 days to complete it.
I expect to wrap everything within 6 months (IFR, Multi add-on, CSEL).
Does anybody think that that time frame is not realistic ?
 
If they're charging you for the time, make sure you get every minute of the time you're paying for. That's kinda of a crappy deal for them to do that.
 
zolp said:
Thanks for the tips so far.
I do understand what you mean by focusing on cheap. God I'm tired of driving around and visiting lousy flight schools. I'm settled as of now. The rates for 172's are acceptable where I am at right now at 105$/hour. The 142p frasca is rated at 75$/hour with instruction. The lame part of this school is that although they charge instruction at 40$/hour, they charge rigorously 1 hour of pre and post flight training (no matter what) at 35$/hour. So the total is usually 145$ per hour plus 35$.
I've started my IFR training part 141. I won't be doing anything 'accelerated'. I'll be doing 10 hours of sim and the remaining of that should be in an aircraft. I do have a sim available that I can use whenever it's not being used by other students so I can practice with no additional cost as much as needed.
I'm taking my first IFR lesson only after I'm done with the ground school (jeppesen Instrument book).
I'll be eating IFR for breakfast and I've allowed myself 45 to 60 days to complete it.
I expect to wrap everything within 6 months (IFR, Multi add-on, CSEL).
Does anybody think that that time frame is not realistic ?
Click to expand...

You can do up to 20 hours in the sim now for part 61. That rule changed very recently.

While I prefer to fly, there is a lot of advantage to hitting the 'pause' button so you can discuss what's happening with your CFII.
 
I asked the school's owner and he said that I could do up to 10 hours, not specifying part 61 or 141. I think he really wants me flyin' $$. I do prefer flying as well, no question, however having learned VOR on a frasca during my private proved that SIMS are really convenient for some areas. I guess they are going to be pretty advantageous for instrument training. They're cheaper too...
Would you happen to know the amount of hours that I can do in a SIM for instrument part 141 ? Where did you refer to find that information ? I've been everywhere and from what I've gathered the only way to tell is to look at the FAA 'letter' for that specific sim, which is likely being kept well hidden as they want me to fly as much as possible...
 
zolp said:
I asked the school's owner and he said that I could do up to 10 hours, not specifying part 61 or 141. I think he really wants me flyin' $$. I do prefer flying as well, no question, however having learned VOR on a frasca during my private proved that SIMS are really convenient for some areas. I guess they are going to be pretty advantageous for instrument training. They're cheaper too...
Would you happen to know the amount of hours that I can do in a SIM for instrument part 141 ? Where did you refer to find that information ? I've been everywhere and from what I've gathered the only way to tell is to look at the FAA 'letter' for that specific sim, which is likely being kept well hidden as they want me to fly as much as possible...
Click to expand...

Well...to start with...

http://www.flyingmag.com/training/r...1&spJobID=460463906&spReportId=NDYwNDYzOTA2S0

(Warning - mandatory pop-up ad will play for 30 sec. Sorry. No way around it.)

From the article:

"Part 61 students will be permitted to log up to 20 hours of instrument time in an approved advanced aviation training device (AATD) or up to 10 hours of time in an approved basic aviation training device (BATD). Part 141 students will be allowed to accomplish up to 40 percent of their total flight training hour requirements in an aviation training device.
Read more at http://www.flyingmag.com/training/r...or-time-instrument-rating#4PRwTcwKBSKtdGFw.99"

And here is the link which shows the 14 CFR-Part 61 Amendment to the Instrument Rating:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=d5ef69cf3d30cccc06fa30e8986eb455&node=20141203y1.9

And here is the link which shows the 14 CFR-Part 141 Amendment:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=28a5a3e121284e3fe0979996ab50df33&node=20141203y1.11

All of this information took me about 15 minutes of searching on FAA.gov.

Further research requests will require some money from you.... ;)
 
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zolp said:
Thanks alot. That's certainly going to save me a couple hundies :bounce:
Click to expand...

Well, if the guy is running a 141 operation and not aware of this (or insisting anyway, counter to the reg) it might be worth searching out another training facility.
 
He's actually a nice guy. He just has a hard time hiding his greediness sometimes. :rolleyes:
The rates for solo time building here are favourable though. Great availability of planes (They have 10+ 172's) and 105$ for a 172 wet is not a shabby deal.
I intend to bug out though. Here's the current chronogram :

1) Instrument
2) Private multi add-on on seminoles at 250$/ hour. ( I get my complex hours for the commercial out of the way as well as another rating)
At this point, I'd have about 100 hour TT.
3) Find a safety pilot to fly 100 hours.
After hitting the 200 hour mark :
4) Move to Bainbridge to get a tailwheel endorsement and an ag license (which has always been the ultimate goal, I simply wasn't aware that I could do the ag license before checking the commercial. Original plan was to wrap the commercial and move to Bainbridge).
5) Wrap commercial and ag license at 250ish hours.
 
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Went in today for my first IFR flight. For my surprise there was no flight involved. They want me doing thirty something hours of ground instruction at 40$/hour, and that is a no go. I'm going part 61 all the way.

I felt like a cash cow burning $80.00 for two hours of 'ground training' to a point I couldn't take it anymore. I had to interrupt my 'ground instruction' which consisted of watching IPAD videos and doing rather small 'aviation talk'. I had to speak w/ the chief instructor regarding my 'ideas' of going part 61.

Truthfully, part 141 makes them much more money even though you fly less as they profit more from the increased instruction requirements (dual and pre/pos) than the hobbs meter running at 105$ / hour wet.

Now I'm planning on doing 20 hours of SIM, and 17 hours of flight instruction in an airplane (I have 3 hours of simulated training from my private).
If more is required, I'm going back to the SIM at 75$ w/ instruction even though it might not count towards my instrument requirements. It won't matter as I will have all the prerequisites fullfilled.

To Mr. Killbilly,
Would you happen to know if there are any other amendments regarding logging time on a flight simulator / aviation training device / flight training device towards the CSEL license ?
As far as I'm aware, I can still log up to 30 hours of simulator time, plus the 20 hours of instrument simulator time towards my commercial license. [ FAR 61.129(i)(1) ]
 
zolp said:
Went in today for my first IFR flight. For my surprise there was no flight involved. They want me doing thirty something hours of ground instruction at 40$/hour, and that is a no go. I'm going part 61 all the way.

I felt like a cash cow burning $80.00 for two hours of 'ground training' to a point I couldn't take it anymore. I had to interrupt my 'ground instruction' which consisted of watching IPAD videos and doing rather small 'aviation talk'. I had to speak w/ the chief instructor regarding my 'ideas' of going part 61.

Truthfully, part 141 makes them much more money even though you fly less as they profit more from the increased instruction requirements (dual and pre/pos) than the hobbs meter running at 105$ / hour wet.

Now I'm planning on doing 20 hours of SIM, and 17 hours of flight instruction in an airplane (I have 3 hours of simulated training from my private).
If more is required, I'm going back to the SIM at 75$ w/ instruction even though it might not count towards my instrument requirements. It won't matter as I will have all the prerequisites fullfilled.

To Mr. Killbilly,
Would you happen to know if there are any other amendments regarding logging time on a flight simulator / aviation training device / flight training device towards the CSEL license ?
As far as I'm aware, I can still log up to 30 hours of simulator time, plus the 20 hours of instrument simulator time towards my commercial license. [ FAR 61.129(i)(1) ]
Click to expand...
Do they not have an online program like King available to supplement the ground requirement?
 
I'm quite sure they are be able accept kingschool stuff as supplemental ground (25 hours) for the ground portion of their syllabus (that's exactly what I did for my private back in a 141 school in Oregon). I did ask if I could do the ground through the cessna kingschool program before I even enrolled, the awnser was no, so I bought their jeppesen IFR kit instead.
I hate this behaviour, but I will endure it for my IFR. Again, their flat rates are reasonable (105$ plane and 40$ instruction). You need monitor your account balance promptly though.
They've been charging 1 hour of pre and pos on every dual flight for a 10min call to flight service before flight and 5min post for logbook signing and hand shaking.
I didn't complain about it yet as they forgot to charge me for a couple flights. I'll play dumb, we're almost even now. :stir:
 
I'd find somewhere else to train. Specifically, some place that billed you for the correct amount of time and was able to clearly explain the regs and requirements to you.
 
I am training 141 for my instrument and charged $160 wet and $50 for the instructor. Expensive but I live in a place where that is near the norm. Also, I don't mind paying the extra because I feel confident in the instruction and safe in their airplanes. Sometimes paying a premium makes sense.
 
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