Commercial ASEL and AMEL rides same day?

aloft

New Member
For those of you who've been following my commercial saga, the dilemma has been local access to a complex single for the commercial ASEL ride. A friend of mine suggested that I just start my multi training now, and when I get close to being ready, to just brush up on the ASEL maneuvers, then do both checkrides on the same day--which would somehow allow me to do the ASEL maneuvers in a non-complex airplane, since the AMEL ride would cover the complex landings requirement.

Does this make sense? Is it legal? Will it work? Getting checked out and proficient/knowledgeable in an Arrow is an expense that I'd rather put toward ME time.
 
Does this make sense? Is it legal? Will it work? Getting checked out and proficient/knowledgeable in an Arrow is an expense that I'd rather put toward ME time.
Yes, you could do that (at least I can't think of a good reason why not). The question is would the examiner go along with it?

I know a lot of guys that got the CMEL first, then took the CSEL in a DA20. none on the same day though.
 
I did it just this way..I went up in my 172 that morning and did all the comm single stuff. After I was done with that came back and hopped in the seminole and went up and did my multi stuff....Its the way to go I think and it is completely legal
 
Exactly how I did it. Initial multi in a Duchess, then hopped right into a 172 10 minutes later for the SE add on. Best way to go in my opinion.
 
Ok, so I found this in the now-defunct Pt 61 FAQ:

QUESTION: I understand that an applicant for an initial issuance of the Commercial Pilot Certificate using an ASEL is required to be tested in a complex airplane during the practical test. This is true even if the person holds a Private Pilot Certificate with a AMEL rating and has the complex endorsement required by 61.31(e). The question is what area(s) of operations/tasks must the applicant be tested on in a complex airplane?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.43(a) and the Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards, FAA-S-8081-12B [August 2002]; Per the paragraph noted as “ Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test” contained in the Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards, FAA-S-8081-12B, page 7, is stated, in pertinent part, “ 4. be a complex airplane furnished by the applicant, unless the applicant currently holds a commercial pilot certificate with a single-engine or multiengine class rating as appropriate, for the performance of takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency procedures.” Yes, you are correct, even if the private pilot has complex experience and endorsement.

The following areas of operations/tasks must be accomplished in a complex airplane during the Commercial Pilot – ASEL rating practical test:
Area of Operation IV. Takeoffs, Landings, and Go-Arounds
Task A. Normal and Crosswind (if crosswind conditions exist) Takeoff and Climb
Task B. Normal and Crosswind (if crosswind conditions exist) Approach and Landing
Task C. Soft-field Takeoff and Climb
Task D. Soft-field Approach and Landing
Task E. Short-field Takeoff and Climb
Task F. Soft-field Approach and Landing
Area of Operation IX. Emergency Operations
Task B. Systems and Equipment Malfunction
At least 5 elements selected by the examiner.
{Q&A- 258} {Q&A-444}
So, for a Commercial ASEL initial issuance, it appears I'd need to do the above areas in a complex airplane, the rest can be done in a non-complex. And even though it doesn't specify, it doesn't make sense to me that performing these in a multi-engine airplane would be permitted for the Comm ASEL. So, presuming one has not done all their commercial XCs in a twin, just how is it allowable to do half of a combined ASEL/AMEL ride in a non-complex aircraft, and the other half in a twin? Can anyone show me where such a combined checkride is even allowed?

EDIT: some folks on the rec.aviation.* usenet groups have said that all the ASEL stuff BUT that cited above can be done in a non-complex aircraft, then an applicant has 30 days or something to do the complex demonstration, which can be done in conjuction with the AMEL checkride. This suggests that it IS allowable to use a twin to do the ASEL complex areas of operation, but I can't find anything from the FAA that would substantiate this.

Come on, reg hounds! MidlifeFlyer, where ya at on this one?
 
Yes, I've asked an examiner (who was formerly the head of the local FSDO) and he informed that you can do the Commercial in a single non-complex, then get in the multi complex, without meeting the long XC requirements for the multi (making it a single-addon). He said it's up to the examiner if the multi would demonstrate the 'complex' for the Comm. single certificate, then the multi is an addon. He said he wouldn't want to do it the same day, though, so the multi would be the next day I'd believe.

If anyone has any reference for this, please let us know! I plan on doing this in the next 6 months or so.
 
If anyone has any reference for this, please let us know! I plan on doing this in the next 6 months or so.

Difficult to do without cheating. The Pilot Examiner's handbook expressly forbids it for a CFI flight test, but doesn't contain the same language for the Commercial. Intentional or oversight? Don't know. Here's what it says:

A. Required Use of a Complex Airplane.
(1) For the issuance of a flight instructor certificate for a rating in the airplane category, a complex airplane must be used to perform takeoffs, landings, and emergency operations that are appropriate to complex airplanes.
(2) An applicant for a flight instructor certificate in a single-engine airplane is not allowed to use a complex multiengine airplane for the complex airplane requirements.

However, the Commercial SE requires that you have a complex aircraft, so you can't complete this checkride without one. How can you start a ME Commercial checkride add-on when you don't already have a Commercial? I suppose the examiner could take you up in the twin prior to the start of the ME oral, but I bet that's not what's going to happen.

You're also going to have to put on the 8710 what aircraft you used on the checkride. Will OK City kick it back? Don't know. You might give them a call.
 
Difficult to do without cheating. The Pilot Examiner's handbook expressly forbids it for a CFI flight test, but doesn't contain the same language for the Commercial. Intentional or oversight? Don't know. Here's what it says:

A. Required Use of a Complex Airplane.
(1) For the issuance of a flight instructor certificate for a rating in the airplane category, a complex airplane must be used to perform takeoffs, landings, and emergency operations that are appropriate to complex airplanes.
(2) An applicant for a flight instructor certificate in a single-engine airplane is not allowed to use a complex multiengine airplane for the complex airplane requirements.

However, the Commercial SE requires that you have a complex aircraft, so you can't complete this checkride without one. How can you start a ME Commercial checkride add-on when you don't already have a Commercial? I suppose the examiner could take you up in the twin prior to the start of the ME oral, but I bet that's not what's going to happen.

You're also going to have to put on the 8710 what aircraft you used on the checkride. Will OK City kick it back? Don't know. You might give them a call.

I did my CMEL first then my SE

Also did MEI as initial and then the SE add on. OKC did not kick it back. I used a C172 on both the SE add ons.
 
Difficult to do without cheating. The Pilot Examiner's handbook expressly forbids it for a CFI flight test, but doesn't contain the same language for the Commercial. Intentional or oversight? Don't know. Here's what it says:

A. Required Use of a Complex Airplane.
(1) For the issuance of a flight instructor certificate for a rating in the airplane category, a complex airplane must be used to perform takeoffs, landings, and emergency operations that are appropriate to complex airplanes.
(2) An applicant for a flight instructor certificate in a single-engine airplane is not allowed to use a complex multiengine airplane for the complex airplane requirements.

However, the Commercial SE requires that you have a complex aircraft, so you can't complete this checkride without one. How can you start a ME Commercial checkride add-on when you don't already have a Commercial? I suppose the examiner could take you up in the twin prior to the start of the ME oral, but I bet that's not what's going to happen.

You're also going to have to put on the 8710 what aircraft you used on the checkride. Will OK City kick it back? Don't know. You might give them a call.

That is what I was referring to.

However in order to not have a question about it. Do the CMEL first, then the CSEL the next day or whatever. Unless of course you are trying to weasel out of the XC requirements.
 
Unless of course you are trying to weasel out of the XC requirements.

They are. :)

Lots and lots of people do it the way you did, and I've sent a few. If what these guys want to do was generally permissible, fewer people would do what you did. Heck, all the ab initio schools would be doing it that way. I'd check carefully that it was going to pass FSDO and OK City before becoming too committed. The ex-FSDO guy *may* be operating on outdated information, because the trend seems to be that the FAA likes to close loopholes. :rolleyes:
 
If anyone has any reference for this, please let us know! I plan on doing this in the next 6 months or so.

Here is an old FAQ which says it's ok:

================

QUESTION: Reference § 61.45(a)(1)(i). Is it possible, as an example, for an applicant to use a Piper Senaca II on the practical test for the complex airplane requirements for the Commercial Pilot Certificate with an airplane single-engine land rating? Even if the applicant is not rated in a multiengine airplane”

ANSWER: Yes, a complex multiengine airplane can be used on the practical test to meet the complex airplane requirements of the Commercial Pilot Certificate for an airplane single-engine land rating.

However, if the applicant does not hold an airplane multiengine land rating, somebody else has to be the PIC for the practical test. Hopefully, this doesn’t happen to often.
 
I just did my MECOMM first in the baron and that took care of any high performance complex you need. Just get it in the multi first then get a 172 or warrior and finish your SEL. CHEERS
 
They are. :)

Lots and lots of people do it the way you did, and I've sent a few. If what these guys want to do was generally permissible, fewer people would do what you did. Heck, all the ab initio schools would be doing it that way. I'd check carefully that it was going to pass FSDO and OK City before becoming too committed. The ex-FSDO guy *may* be operating on outdated information, because the trend seems to be that the FAA likes to close loopholes. :rolleyes:

Guys, I don't understand the X/C thingie that you are talking about. Weiseling out of the X/C? Are you saying that if you do one ride and the DE has agreed to let you fly back and get the 172, that he/she will not require to do the X/C portion of the flight that they always have you start out on? Could you clarify?

I will be taking the CMEL/CSEL very shortly and am curious about this myself.
 
Guys, I don't understand the X/C thingie that you are talking about. Weiseling out of the X/C? Are you saying that if you do one ride and the DE has agreed to let you fly back and get the 172, that he/she will not require to do the X/C portion of the flight that they always have you start out on? Could you clarify?

No, we're talking about the X/C training that must occur for your *initial* commercial certificate. If you get your ME first, then you must do your X/C in a ME airplane. Expensive.

In order to save money, what some will do when getting the SE as an initial Commercial, they'll do part of the checkride in a C172 and part in something like an Arrow or 172RG. To save even more money, those candidates who will immediately plan on doing ME training after their SE would like to get around the requirement to supply a complex for the checkride and just demonstrate that ability when they show up in a twin.
 
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