combined private pilot w/ instrument rating

robofos

robofos

Well-Known Member
Has anyone worked with a student for this?

61.65(g) says you can have 45 hrs "of xc flight time performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor" Instead of the 50 xc PIC.

My student has a medical issue that will delay his medical, and therefore his first solo. He wants to get his instrument rating and likes the idea of the combined PPL + IR.

My question is how would you log the 45 hrs dual xc if he is performing the duties of PIC? an asterisk next to PIC hours?? I'm a new instructor, and any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
Monk said:
Just note it in the remarks as pic while duel.
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A150K said:
Honest question, how is one supposed to log PIC XC dual if they are not rated for catagory and class?
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61.65(g) ;> (Or 61.129(a)(4), (b)(4) ,etc)

But it's NOT PIC—It's 'performing the duties of Pilot in Command', and is counted as 'Dual Instruction', not 'Pilot in Command'.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
61.65(g) ;> (Or 61.129(a)(4), (b)(4) ,etc)

But it's NOT PIC—It's 'performing the duties of Pilot in Command', and is counted as 'Dual Instruction', not 'Pilot in Command'.

-Fox
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I agree. It's not countable as PIC time; its a substitute for it, but not "it."

Acrofox, have you seen any specific guidance fro the FAA on whether it's considered dual or not from a logging standpoint? I don't disagree with your answer but am wondering.
 
thanks for the replies! I didn't know it was possible for commercial req's too. So you wouldn't log it as PIC time, but how would someone know when the student has those 45 hours performing the duties of PIC. I think I could put in remarks: "performing PIC duties for 61.65(g)" and add all those times up
 
robofos said:
thanks for the replies! I didn't know it was possible for commercial req's too.
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The modern "performing the duties" substitution in Part 61 started with the commercial multi due to insurance issues precluding multi solo flight.
So you wouldn't log it as PIC time, but how would someone know when the student has those 45 hours performing the duties of PIC. I think I could put in remarks: "performing PIC duties for 61.65(g)" and add all those times up
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In your situation with a student who is likely to do a lot of "performing the duties" substitution, it probably justifies the use of a spare logbook column so you can run totals easily.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Acrofox, have you seen any specific guidance fro the FAA on whether it's considered dual or not from a logging standpoint? I don't disagree with your answer but am wondering.
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You know, now I'm not 100% sure on the 'dual' part. My memory isn't perfect... It was clarified in an LOI, if I recall correctly... let me see if I can find it and get back to you. ^.^

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
You know, now I'm not 100% sure on the 'dual' part. My memory isn't perfect... It was clarified in an LOI, if I recall correctly... let me see if I can find it and get back to you. ^.^

-Fox
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You may be thinking of the 2013 Crowe letter, which talks about not logging PIC time. It doesn't talk about dual time. I'm not aware of something specific on how the CFI and student log it as training, although like you, I think the background of the reg, especially explanatory notes to the Final Rule for the 2009 expansion, contemplates it is indeed "flight training" and should be logged as such. I was just curious whether you came across something I missed.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You may be thinking of the 2013 Crowe letter, which talks about not logging PIC time. It doesn't talk about dual time. I'm not aware of something specific on how the CFI and student log it as training, although like you, I think the background of the reg, especially explanatory notes to the Final Rule for the 2009 expansion, contemplates it is indeed "flight training" and should be logged as such. I was just curious whether you came across something I missed.
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I'm pretty sure you're correct that I was thinking about that LOI, and no—I don't know whether there is anything formalized about whether it should be logged as 'training time'.

Here an interesting rhetorical question—If the pilot-in-training is performing the duties of PIC, but is not acting as PIC, and the flight instructor isn't logging PIC as a flight instructor giving instruction, who is the PIC, and who can log PIC? If this flight isn't dual instruction, do we have a case where -nobody- can log PIC?

-Fox
 
61.65(g) in the remarks, it's dual, but nothing in the PIC column. Checkride is all or nothing, the SPIC will be wiped out if the examiner does something stupid like issue the PSEL and discontinue the IFR (WX, fatigue, exc.) make sure it stays on one 8710. The DPE's are really lost in my experience, keep on top of it because most have no clue on what to do paperwork wise or how to conduct the ride itself.

The ride is pretty brutal, ~2.5 of flight, long oral. I'd be careful on who I sent into it, takes a strong applicant. DE's are getting observed at a high rate conducting these rides. It's a sweet way to get it done but takes a special student, an examiner who has already done a few, and plenty of double checking on the CFI's end.
 
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I can't imagine wanting to do that check ride. Most students are mentally wiped after a simple PPSEL ride, first experience with an examiner, etc. Adding an instrument check ride just seems like a great way to invite failure. I guess if it fits the situation and the student really wants to do it, fine, but to me it fails the risk vs reward analysis.
 
rframe said:
I can't imagine wanting to do that check ride. Most students are mentally wiped after a simple PPSEL ride, first experience with an examiner, etc. Adding an instrument check ride just seems like a great way to invite failure. I guess if it fits the situation and the student really wants to do it, fine, but to me it fails the risk vs reward analysis.
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I agree. I've done a few like this (the company I worked for went this direction) not my call but it does work as long as the student is motivated and prepared.

I would however not recommend this track to my student if I were instructing at an FBO or on my own. I'd let them come to me with the suggestion then decide if they could handle it after some lessons and a few assignments. You don't want them blaming you after an oral bust (double the DPE fee--it's considered 2 events for them, and the re-check) or say you can't get them into a ride at all... the SPIC goes void if you need to give up and just do the PSEL.

It can get a little messy with the wrong student/examiner/instructor combo.
 
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