Comair pilots approve 9%-23% pay cut

tonyw said:
The way I see it is this. We've always had the ruling class and the peasants. Back when we had kings, we called the ruling class royalty, now, it's the super wealthy. The peasants used to be the farmers, now it's the middle class.

As long as the ruling class throws enough crumbs to the peasants, there's no problems. And folks, they're crumbs. Even the most "overpaid" pilot in the glory days took home, what, $300K a year? Compared to execs taking home $30 million, it's chump change.

But sometimes, the ruling class gets too greedy, and the peasants revolt. I think we're starting to get to that stage now.
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Gold Star for Tony.

Look I don't want to be rich as a pilot just well paid for my time,education, investment and skill. I think $300-500k is a good top salary out for a seniored 20-30 yr. captain.
 
Disagree

Sure if you work for someone you may never make it big. Strikeout on your own. Come up with your own idea of a product or service. The thinking and coming up with new things is why the rich get richer. The way you describe the economy is that there is one pie and everyone gets a slice of it. That simply isn' the case. New pies are being cooked everyday and it is up to you to make your own if you want it. Everyones quality of life has gone up significantly in hte last 100 years. The poor in the US live better than a good portion of the middle class in Europe. Crumbs aren't thrown to anyone. The greedy rich certainly wouldn't toss away anything they didn't have to. I can't remember where I saw the stat but only a very small percentage of millionaires inherited that money. So no you don't have to be born with a silver spoon. I am sure it helps but again, you don't control what you are born into. You can accept it or you can have sour grapes. I know two food references in the same post. I should go eat.

What do you base your 300k to 500K on? I think that is a reasonable salary for an automation engineer in a multi billion dollar steel mill but I am not going to get that much from my employer.
 
300-500k is "reasonable" for an employee?

HA HA HA HA HA

You're kidding, right? As soon as someone gets 300k for ANY job just imagine how many very qualfied applicants will show up willing to do it for 150k.
 
I'm afraid your stats are incorrect, Shooter.

For example, everyone talks about Bill Gates as pull 'em up by his bootstraps kind of guy. Except there's this problem. His father was a very wealthy corporate lawyer.

This is from the Wall Street Journal:

Despite the widespread belief that the U.S. remains a more mobile society than Europe, economists and sociologists say that in recent decades the typical child starting out in poverty in continental Europe (or in Canada) has had a better chance at prosperity. Miles Corak, an economist for Canada's national statistical agency who edited a recent Cambridge University Press book on mobility in Europe and North America, tweaked dozens of studies of the U.S., Canada and European countries to make them comparable. "The U.S. and Britain appear to stand out as the least mobile societies among the rich countries studied," he finds. France and Germany are somewhat more mobile than the U.S.; Canada and the Nordic countries are much more so.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Rich-Poor-Gap13may05.htm

Also, check this out. See where the median income is for the lower quintile here in the US?

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/loader.cfm?url=/commonspot/security/getfile.cfm&PageID=68122

And then if you take a look at this:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_percap

You'll see that your statment about the in the US being better off than the middle class in Europe is inaccurate.
 
I'm definitely going to agree with Tony and Matthew on this one. Shooter, what you wrote seems to me as a simple reiteration of something I read in "Rich Dad, Poor Dad", which in itself is a misleading publication attempted to lead the masses to believe you can create your own wealth. Only a select few can be really successful at such ventures, hence why the average age of a small business is only 2-3 years.

There has been a massive paradigm shift over the years leading until now, where before workers would learn a skill or trade and be paid accordingly for that skill. Now, skilled workers are a dime a dozen, and only those with innovation or managerial abilities will succeed. It could be the growth of telecommunications and world commerce without travel, who knows. But those in the board room are making all the profits, while the working class are taking cuts in salary and benefits.

What you say to do Shooter, "create an idea", is not as easy as it sounds. So yes, those who can accomplish this should reap the rewards for their hard work and determination. However, should we just push aside those like us, pilots (skilled workers), who have chosen a route of existance where we learn a trade, then apply it to lead to the success of a company?

I for one am tired of being treated like a second-hand individual for playing an integral part in the success of a business. Yes, management plays an important role as leaders, providing direction to the employees and overseeing the "big picture." But employees are the backbone and structure of every company, and treating them the way airline employees are currently treated is just forcing the foundation to crumble.

I'm prepared now for you to tell me again how I knew the pay coming in, therefore it's justified that we get paid what we do for our skill and service. I know it's coming.
 
Oh man, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is a 'hoot'.

When the financial incentive to innovate, study science and do the difficult things goes away, so does our position as the leader of the free world.

A lot of people fail to realize that our standard of living isn't guaranteed and we're enabling the US government and board of directors destroy the middle class of our nation. And the middle class is what built America. Not by some tennis-playing, "I just laid off 500 workers and our stock went up $1! Woo!" management goon.
 
Pure example of getting rich off of selling dreams. Similar to many expensive flight academies and Quixtar/Amway.
 
Eww, them's nasty words. So much for having breakfast!

"Hey how did you 'get rich'?"

"Oh, I read this book..."
 
Doug Taylor said:
When the financial incentive to innovate, study science and do the difficult things goes away, so does our position as the leader of the free world.
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That incentive is already gone. We're gonna get our asses kicked so bad in the global marketplace by countries where they create well educated, highly motivated employees and reward those employees by not treating them as disposable assets to be tossed out when someone does it for cheaper.

For example, when Japanese heavy manufacturers faced a similar dillema to what Ford and GM are facing right now, did they lay off thousands? Ship their jobs over the China or Malaysia? Cut benefits?

Nope. The folks in Nagoya prefecture said, I've got some talented employees, let me find something they can do better than anyone else. And they kept those people on the payroll, they found new products, and guess what?

Nagoya, which used to be laughed at as a smokestack prefecture that was going to be useless, is now a huge driver in the Japanese economy.

Unfortunately, our business leaders do not, for the most part, get this.
 
Look no further than the American auto industry.

Somehow dorkboy at Ford thinks that laying off workers in the US and shifting it offshore is going to suddenly enable them to manufacture autos that the world wants to buy.

Then he's offering to send some workers to college. To study what?
 
Doug Taylor said:
Then he's offering to send some workers to college. To study what?
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College is overrated. If I knew what I know now back when I was 18, I'd have saved the money college cost and invested it for some capital. Then I would have bought a Blackberry and the whole collection of Robert Kiyosaki books, and would be set for life. :sarcasm:
 
The only book airline pilot's need is "Meth Labs for Dummies" and perhaps a gun if a sale goes awry.

:sarcasm:
 
A lot of people fail to realize that our standard of living isn't guaranteed and we're enabling the US government and board of directors destroy the middle class of our nation.
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HE SHOOTS HE SCORES!

We're all fux0r if somebody doesn't stand up and say things like that.

And taking that statement with what shooter said, Marx is going to be proven right here soon enough if we continue down this road of screwing the worker. Ya'll might not like to hear it, but Marx wrote the communist manifesto on the predication that in the end, the workers will get sick of being bent over by the guys at the top and they'll say "enough is enough," rise up and destroy that system that is holding them down.

Don't believe me? Go ahead, give the common guy a shot and overthrowing the system. Just remember it happened before and it will happen again.
 
Doug Taylor said:
The only book airline pilot's need is "Meth Labs for Dummies" and perhaps a gun if a sale goes awry.

:sarcasm:
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LOL...Fell outa my chair...But never more is that more prevelent then here in the ole PHX Meth capital of the world!!!
 
shooter13 said:
Sure if you work for someone you may never make it big. Strikeout on your own. Come up with your own idea of a product or service. The thinking and coming up with new things is why the rich get richer. The way you describe the economy is that there is one pie and everyone gets a slice of it. That simply isn' the case. New pies are being cooked everyday and it is up to you to make your own if you want it. Everyones quality of life has gone up significantly in hte last 100 years. The poor in the US live better than a good portion of the middle class in Europe. Crumbs aren't thrown to anyone. The greedy rich certainly wouldn't toss away anything they didn't have to. I can't remember where I saw the stat but only a very small percentage of millionaires inherited that money. So no you don't have to be born with a silver spoon. I am sure it helps but again, you don't control what you are born into. You can accept it or you can have sour grapes. I know two food references in the same post. I should go eat.

What do you base your 300k to 500K on? I think that is a reasonable salary for an automation engineer in a multi billion dollar steel mill but I am not going to get that much from my employer.
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Shooter...America is a nightclub with a bouncer out in front with a line stretched around the block. The bouncer is only letting the cool well dressed,uber rich and celebrities and his or her friends in.

In the line are normal joes like you and me even scrubs who go out and spend their last dime or work hard to look good drive that expensive car,own that big house or dress like their extras in Miami Vice just to catch the bouncers eye in hopes of being let it. Even though they know they probably won't ever be let in they still come back night after night hoping,wishing and praying that they get let in.

Then on the odd chance that they do get let in they find out quickly that life is still stacked against them when they learn the club has many different levels such as an upstairs VIP room, outdoor back patio and a lower basement but they are only allowed on to the main dance floor. Then the hoping and praying starts all over again to be able to get to the next level ultimately wanting some day to get to that exclusive upstairs VIP room.

Now...read my analogy carefully I never said that in the American dream you can't live reasonably or even becone "well off" or rich. Just not wealthy. As Chris Rock pointed out there is a big difference between being rich and being wealthy.

I don't want or even need to be weathly..or maybe even rich. I just want to make a really good salary that can afford myself and whoever I should be with a very comfortable life. Where I'm paid consumate to my level of education and skill and I'm not living from check to check.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Look no further than the American auto industry.

Somehow dorkboy at Ford thinks that laying off workers in the US and shifting it offshore is going to suddenly enable them to manufacture autos that the world wants to buy.

Then he's offering to send some workers to college. To study what?
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It is not surprising why people don't really care about Ford. They build the crappiest cars for some ridiculous prices. My mom's 2000 Ford Taurus almost needs a new engine. The horn doesn't work and neither does the alarm. Sometime this week we are gonna go get a Toyota.
 
BCTAv8r said:
It is not surprising why people don't really care about Ford. They build the crappiest cars for some ridiculous prices. My mom's 2000 Ford Taurus almost needs a new engine. The horn doesn't work and neither does the alarm. Sometime this week we are gonna go get a Toyota.
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Personally I think Honda's are better then Toyotas and,and should you be in school?

:)
 
BCTAv8r said:
It is not surprising why people don't really care about Ford. They build the crappiest cars for some ridiculous prices. My mom's 2000 Ford Taurus almost needs a new engine. The horn doesn't work and neither does the alarm. Sometime this week we are gonna go get a Toyota.
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So shafting the employees, and making them more pissed off is a good way to increase the quality of the vehicles they make? Also, check out where your Taurus was made. There is a good chance it wasn't made in America.

Yes, Ford is at a competitive disadvantage because its workers are older and older workers have higher health care costs. Yes, they do have to carry the legacy of a pension program.

But that competitive disadvantage is only part of it.

American car makers have to spent twice the amount of their competition in incentives to get people to buy their product.

Until they get it, and make products people want to buy without having to resort to things like zero percent financing, employee discounts for everyone, and so on, all the cutting in the world ain't gonna do jack squat.
 
tonyw said:
American car makers have to spent twice the amount of their competition in incentives to get people to buy their product.
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Some GM marketing dork took Dr. Seuss's "Green Eggs and Ham" a little too literally and thought it'd be a swell way to move units.

"Would you could you with zero percent?"

"Would you could you with floor mats?"

"Would you could you with 'eeeeeverybody in the club gettin' employee discounts?"
 
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