Comair pilots approve 9%-23% pay cut

Economy

The economy is strong. The Dow is flirting with an all time high. The feds have raised the interest rates for several consecutive quarters. The problem isnt with the economy. The problem is within the industry. It isnt the fact that management has stepped all over the pilots that has put us in the current situation. IT IS THE INDUSTRY. With competition (for customers) the way it is there has to be ways to cut costs to increase profits.

CEO, CFO, COO, and upper management have a legal obligation to shareholders to increase profits no pilots salaries. Why cant anyone understand this? The market will dictate demand for airplanes, pilots, hubs, and all that goes along with expansion and reduction.

By raising fares what would this do? Lets refer to the law of supply and demand. Should all airlines agree to increase fares, other sectors of the transportation industry would see an increase in traffic as people can not afford to travel by air. With low fares, companies are putting more aircraft on the line, more pilots in the air, and more people at their destination at a lower cost. It is the simple economic law that states a product with a lower price should theoretically increase volumes.

The deregulation of the airline industry has allowed companies to reduce all forms of non-fixed overhead such as salaries and benefits in order to compete with eachother. This is simple and basic economics and business practice.

Until the airlines have stabilized (which may never happen) and the job:applicant ratio decrease you will never see salaries where they used to be. Trade in that white shirt for a blue one as one a close friend who is a Capt. for SKYW told me recently.
 
You know you're a tool right? I don't mean that in a degrading fashion, I mean that you are the perfect fit for what airline managment wants in the point end of their aircraft. People like you make company's like Mesa and GoJet's happen.
 
Whoa! Easy there turbo. Its not that I dont want to make oodles of money as a pilot because I do. Its that until we understand why things are the way they are, we'll get nowhere. The companies are the bad guys. Its the perception in America.

Why dont you go be the CEO of an airline and lets see how good you do.

I would treat my pilots great. Better than most, if I was mgmt. You take care of the people that take care of you and your customers. There is an industry set pay rate though. Family docs are worth x amount and so are pilots. I think that pilots shouldnt work for any less than $30K their first year and so on..
 
meritflyer said:
CEO, CFO, COO, and upper management have a legal obligation to shareholders to increase profits no pilots salaries. Why cant anyone understand this? The market will dictate demand for airplanes, pilots, hubs, and all that goes along with expansion and reduction.
Click to expand...

So why aren't they (Management) taking concessions as well in the name of satisfying stockholders and increasing profits?

Why are pilots and other employee groups getting shafted and management getting golden parachutes for raping the employees,stealing their pensions running the company to the ground. Then leaving the company in worst shape then when they took the helm?

Who gets paid 6-7 figures for failing? But not only failing but failing badly? Does that make sense to you?

Why are management geting bonuses for their "hard earned work" for getting employee groups to agree to consessions or getting bonuses when employees are not when said airline actually post a profit?

Answer these questions if you can and maybe we might begin to understand!
 
THEY SHOULD BE! Its unfortunate that pilots are such a commodity right now and they can get away with paying us minimum wages.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Not that I have a dog in this hunt, but did you watch the news yesterday? :)

Ok, I'll disappear, carry on!
Click to expand...

Yeah. I did see it. The market has been sluggish overall for the last 12 months due to concerns primarily over higher energy costs. However, in the last 30-60 days the market was hanging around 10,900. This does not necessarily indicate a weak economy. Jobless claims are the lowest they've been in 8 years, home ownership is at an all time high, and the average worker (adjusted for inflation) is making more today that 10 years ago by about 16%. Homes ownership for instance was at an all time high due to the low interest rates which as they are raised will put people upside down in their home should they have an adjustable interest rate. Economy is strong.
 
All economy/market trends and indicators are positive right now.

I agree with meritflyer - it's the industry. What used to be a glamorous, dashing and high paid job is none of the above..

... and I blame the pilot factory schools.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I'm just slightly curious, what does everyone think is the "final resting place" for the downward slide in pay and benefits, where suddenly having a job doesn't matter since the pay is so ridiculously low and you have no health insurance?
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It will never reach that point...flying an airplane is fun and there will always be kids and career changers willing to work a 'fun' job for practically nothing, they will be at an airline for a couple of years before they realize that the lifestyle isn't worth it and quit but for every person that quits there will be 10 academy graduates waiting to take their place for the same - or lower - pay becuase their pilot school promised them a glamorous career as a pilot. It's an endless cycle that will be repeated forever.

I'd also like to comment on your "That's nice" comment to John. I used to be hard line ALPA and when I was single with no responsibilities to anyone except myself I was ready to "STFD" for something as simple as the company reducing the number of crew meals we got - let alone a pay decrease - but as I've grown up my outlook on things have changed - and your's will too at some point...some day you're going to wake up and find yourself with a wife and a baby to support with a mortgage, student loan, and day care bills to pay and I guarantee you that having a job will become more important than a 9% reduction in pay. That's just the way it is...I know, I know....you're going to tell me that someone has to take stand to stop it blah blah blah...I've read "Flying The Line" too but they need to print a new version called "Flying The Line in the New Century" becuase unfortunatley I don't think this industry will ever return to the "glory days" of the past.
 
Jason said:
It will never reach that point...flying an airplane is fun and there will always be kids and career changers willing to work a 'fun' job for practically nothing...
Click to expand...

I overheard a guy say, "...as long as there's a 20 year old that thinks a leather jacket and $25,000 is cool to fly a jet..."
 
meritflyer said:
The economy is strong. The Dow is flirting with an all time high. The feds have raised the interest rates for several consecutive quarters. The problem isnt with the economy. The problem is within the industry. It isnt the fact that management has stepped all over the pilots that has put us in the current situation. IT IS THE INDUSTRY. With competition (for customers) the way it is there has to be ways to cut costs to increase profits.

CEO, CFO, COO, and upper management have a legal obligation to shareholders to increase profits no pilots salaries. Why cant anyone understand this? The market will dictate demand for airplanes, pilots, hubs, and all that goes along with expansion and reduction.

By raising fares what would this do? Lets refer to the law of supply and demand. Should all airlines agree to increase fares, other sectors of the transportation industry would see an increase in traffic as people can not afford to travel by air. With low fares, companies are putting more aircraft on the line, more pilots in the air, and more people at their destination at a lower cost. It is the simple economic law that states a product with a lower price should theoretically increase volumes.

The deregulation of the airline industry has allowed companies to reduce all forms of non-fixed overhead such as salaries and benefits in order to compete with eachother. This is simple and basic economics and business practice.

Until the airlines have stabilized (which may never happen) and the job:applicant ratio decrease you will never see salaries where they used to be. Trade in that white shirt for a blue one as one a close friend who is a Capt. for SKYW told me recently.
Click to expand...


The law of supply and demand isn't as simple as what you say. There are shifts in either the supply or demand curve. You can shift both curves as well . It doesn't have anything to do with price. However, there are also movements up and down either the supply or demand curve. The slope is never constant in a real law and supply model. Movements along the curves can happen at the same time as well. The same goes for the shifts. Now the movements are all about price. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of factors that can influence either the movement or shift along the curves of supply and demand. It is not practical nor realistic to single out a certain cause that would affect the industry. In your case, it is a supplementary good: car/train/bus/amtrak, etc. There are other stuff to consider like fuel prices as well. Now if fuel would have gone down, then your proposal of other sectors chiming in for the profits would hold little weight. It would be a whole new ball game.


If you're referring to the law of supply and demand to a whole entire industry employing millions of people, your argument is deeply flawed. Economists will raise an eyebrow or two. We are not using the curves to describe the sale of a lemonade stand in hick town ohio, population 400.


The law of supply and demand shouldn't be used in such an arrogant manner. This field of study is relatively still a baby.
 
Don't people have better topics to discuss? This topic is getting REALLY old and just by discussing it nothing is gonna change. So bring on the new topics.
 
It's just a matter of time before someone says "Nazi" and the whole party is over.

Whoops!
 
CoBuilder,

As a double major in polisci and economics, I really dont need a lesson. I worked on it for years. But thanks. I was explaining it in a very easy to understand model.

The law of supply and demand is actually two very gray area of economics. Go read some Adam Smith then get back to me.
 
Doug Taylor said:
It's just a matter of time before someone says "Nazi" and the whole party is over.

Whoops!
Click to expand...

Okay.

Nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi!

Surely you can't be serious.
 
Yes I can, and don't call me Shirley! :)

I'm not really following the thread altogether very closely so I probably shouldn't have said anything.
 
Folks...just a quick observation based soley on my opinion. But I think what we are seeing goes way beyond just this industry or union breaking. It's pure classism at it's finest. It's the rich getting richer off the backs of the poor and the middle class.
Its an assult on our way of life not necessarily as just professionals but the middle class i.e. labor. In this so called "great society" we have a system that seems to perpetuates itself where the rich get richer and the poor well they mostly stay poor.

Worldcom,TYCO and Enron are at least evidence of this. The rich are able to rape the poor and middle class and typically recieve no more then a slap on the wrist or 6 months at club FED if even that in most cases.

Worst of all our current adminisration is in bed with the rich (because they are they rich 1% of America) and the corporations and knows on which side their bread is buttered and is only willing to at the very least give token assistance again if that.

It's probably been said on here before and this is an extreme example but it might take yet another industrial revolution to set things straight again.

Just let me know when because I'm more then willing to throw my wooden sandals in the machine.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Folks...just a quick observation based soley on my opinion. But I think what we are seeing goes way beyond just this industry or union breaking. It's pure classism at it's finest. It's the rich getting richer off the backs of the poor and the middle class.
Its an assult on our way of life not necessarily as just professionals but the middle class i.e. labor. In this so called "great society" we have a system that seems to perpetuates itself where the rich get richer and the poor well they mostly stay poor.

Worldcom,TYCO and Enron are at least evidence of this. The rich are able to rape the poor and middle class and typically recieve no more then a slap on the wrist or 6 months at club FED if even that in most cases.

Worst of all our current adminisration is in bed with the rich (because they are they rich 1% of America) and the corporations and knows on which side their bread is buttered and is only willing to at the very least give token assistance again if that.

It's probably been said on here before and this is an extreme example but it might take yet another industrial revolution to set things straight again.

Just let me know when because I'm more then willing to throw my wooden sandals in the machine.
Click to expand...

I can see your point completely. I agree that the execs shouldn't line their pockets with other peoples lost jobs and pensions. It is morally wrong. The current admin is associated with big business which is the case in all politics on both sides of the isle on the federal level. The dems and repubs are all very wealthy. There have been some very dishonest issues with white collar crimes recently. Lets focus on the good companies and appreciate all they do. There is nothing better than a good company that appreciates you like Costco for instance.

According to recent IRS tax analysis (2000-2001) -

1. The top 5% of wage earners in America pay 53.25% of the taxes.
2. Include the next 5% of wage earners and it moves to 64.89%.
3. The top 50% of the wage earners in the US are responsible for 96.03% of total taxes collected.

The problem lies within the government taking our money, the companies taking our money, and ultimately other people dictating who keeps what.

No politics please. Just thought these were some intersting thoughts.
 
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