Comair 5191/Eyewitness Animations

Eagle421flyer said:
Listening to this makes my stomach roll. Even though the NTSB didn't think fatigue was a factor

" #10 in the report. The the flight crewmembers' did make some errors during their pre-flight activities
and the taxi to the runway, but the NTSB stated there was insufficient evidence to determine whether
fatigue affected their performance."

Many studies have shown that fatigue can present itself much like intoxication when it comes to higher level thought processes, and although I am not sure what the crews' rest cycle was from preceding off duty periods, I have to believe that fatigue played some roll in this event.
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But like it says, there isn't sufficient evidence to draw that conclusion. We can believe that all we want, but whether it will be listed as a factor, will have to have something more than just the major error made that would point to that. In the CVR recording, there isn't the appearance of missed checklist items, the challenge/reply appears normal. Speech isn't slurred, slow, chopped, or questioning/confused, that would be indicitive of fatigue effect to performance.

This isn't to say that the crew wasn't fatigued in any way, this is only to say that there isn't specific evidence to be able to make a conclusion that they were, in fact, suffering effects of fatigue.
 
MikeD said:
But like it says, there isn't sufficient evidence to draw that conclusion. We can believe that all we want, but whether it will be listed as a factor, will have to have something more than just the major error made that would point to that. In the CVR recording, there isn't the appearance of missed checklist items, the challenge/reply appears normal. Speech isn't slurred, slow, chopped, or questioning/confused, that would be indicitive of fatigue effect to performance.

This isn't to say that the crew wasn't fatigued in any way, this is only to say that there isn't specific evidence to be able to make a conclusion that they were, in fact, suffering effects of fatigue.
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Earlier in the CVR, I think they started to repeat a checklist, that was the only thing that I recall that was in the least bit odd, not that I haven't done the same thing ... to completion.

If I were to divorce myself from my conclusions and be placed in the position of defending the first officer, I would have made the point that the FO deferred to the captain that he knew had flown from LEX a number of times and it was the captain that taxied the aircraft to 26.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Earlier in the CVR, I think they started to repeat a checklist, that was the only thing that I recall that was in the least bit odd, not that I haven't done the same thing ... to completion.

If I were to divorce myself from my conclusions and be placed in the position of defending the first officer, I would have made the point that the FO deferred to the captain that he knew had flown from LEX a number of times and it was the captain that taxied the aircraft to 26.
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"Did we do a Descent Check already?"
 
Pilot Fighter said:
If I were to divorce myself from my conclusions and be placed in the position of defending the first officer, I would have made the point that the FO deferred to the captain that he knew had flown from LEX a number of times and it was the captain that taxied the aircraft to 26.
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Not to mention that the F/O was probably heads down nearly the entire time since it was such a short taxi. Heck, at my airline, during a short taxi like that, I would probably be heads down for the most part until we lined up on the runway, especially if the captain makes the decision to start the engine on taxi out. Just another reason having a 13 item before takeoff checklist is STUPID.
 
CFIscare said:
Not to mention that the F/O was probably heads down nearly the entire time since it was such a short taxi. Heck, at my airline, during a short taxi like that, I would probably be heads down for the most part until we lined up on the runway, especially if the captain makes the decision to start the engine on taxi out. Just another reason having a 13 item before takeoff checklist is STUPID.
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Every single time we've ended up in the wrong place at an airport, I've been heads down any number of things we should be doing before we even start moving. And it's not the captains fault, both of us should have our heads in the game. There's no reason for the skipper to be tasked with driving around by himself.
 
jtrain609 said:
Every single time we've ended up in the wrong place at an airport, I've been heads down any number of things we should be doing before we even start moving. And it's not the captains fault, both of us should have our heads in the game. There's no reason for the skipper to be tasked with driving around by himself.
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I agree, and procedures and checklists need to reflect that. Unfortunately, some airlines are behind the times.
 
Ugh, all three videos I watched churned my stomach, thanks for posting though. I always try to take something away from stuff like this. After seeing animations of the Helios 737 crash in Greece and the Payne Stewart crash in the Dakotas? I think, I always routinely check the pressurization when in cruise flight. Especially with the A/P on and I feel tired... I'll try to apply this into my routine, although our procedure has us check the runway about three times throughout the taxi anyways.
 
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CFIscare said:
Not to mention that the F/O was probably heads down nearly the entire time since it was such a short taxi. Heck, at my airline, during a short taxi like that, I would probably be heads down for the most part until we lined up on the runway, especially if the captain makes the decision to start the engine on taxi out. Just another reason having a 13 item before takeoff checklist is STUPID.
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At my airline, the CRJ astronauts get to do their taxi check standing still. Depending on the situation on the EMB, some Captains (good ones) will do ours right after push as well if the taxi is going to be short, or pick a low threat time (e.g. on a straightaway) to do it.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
At my airline, the CRJ astronauts get to do their taxi check standing still. Depending on the situation on the EMB, some Captains (good ones) will do ours right after push as well if the taxi is going to be short, or pick a low threat time (e.g. on a straightaway) to do it.
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The Brasilia FFOD taxi check is freaking ridiculous. It basically relegates the captain to a single pilot taxi at a couple of the busiest airports in the world.
 
GypsyPilot said:
The Brasilia FFOD taxi check is freaking ridiculous. It basically relegates the captain to a single pilot taxi at a couple of the busiest airports in the world.
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No doubt. You're very unlucky if you're taxiing around LAX or SFO doing that nonsense. It also feels weird doing it with the sun up. :eek:

It's unapproved technique, but Timer 2/Timer 2/NORM and start time may or may not be on the pre-taxi for some folks.
 
Derg said:
I literally have no idea what I just read.
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AviationHumor-0020.jpg
 
GypsyPilot said:
Wow. The last time I heard actual CVRs was on the old Air Disasters site from a long ass time ago... Like close to 15 years ago. I fly the CRJ (200 and 700), and I have no idea what that crazy wharbling sound at the end is. Anybody know? Almost sounds like an ELT...

It really is emotional to watch this kind of stuff. I'll admit it, I was once part of a crew (part 91) that took off from the wrong runway, at night, at an unfamiliar airport. The operation had VERY poor CRM (I was definitely considered a right seat gear bitch by that captain), and basically non-existent procedures for capturing a mistake like this. As soon as I realized what we'd done, it scared the crap out of me and I immediately thought of 5191. We were extremely lucky, we got away with our mistake.
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Stick pusher is the warbler you heard.
 
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