Here lately i've been doing a lot of research on college degrees, mainly because I hear a lot of "is this a good one" or "which one of these are better"! Well after thinking about a lot I think that it is very important for one to get a degree in something that is of great interests to them. I know a lot of people that choose degrees in careers fields because of the starting salaries or which one has the best stature. Other than aviation of course, I was always interested in banking,finance, money, etc, so I got a bachelors in finance. Although I am striving to be an airline pilot, I learned a lot that I will use in my everyday life for the rest of my life. I look back before college and I was really financially stupid. Even if I never work in the professional finance career field, at least also it's something to fall back on. Right now i'm working on my masters, although i'm only taking a few classes a semester, but hey I figured it couldn't hurt in the world today. Also I choose to only enroll in a couple of classes, because it allows me to better pursue my flight ratings, time, etc. What are all of your thoughts on this?
College Degrees
- Thread starter JGriffis
- Start date
Aviator737
New Member
I thought EatSleepFly made a good point: It's not necessarily as though having that degree in a non-aviation field will mean you can jump right into another job straight out of piloting. Similar to aviation in that regard, I would imagine: you can show to the airlines that you have a 4-year degree in aeronautical science, but if you only have 250 hours, it ain't gonna help you much. On the other hand, you can show 'em a 4-year degree in (what else) underwater basketweaving and have 6,000 hours TT and they'll be happy.
Similarly, if you go and try to work for a business, and you have a 4-year degree in business administration, but so far have only flown airplanes for a living, you're still probably gonna be starting at the bottom of the totem pole. You haven't "logged your time".
And at least for young guys starting in the industry, getting a degree in aviation can really streamline the process. Being able to able apply flight training towards college credit is a pretty big boost.
And what about earning an undergrad in aviation, and then a graduate in, for example, business? A plan I'm currently considering.
Similarly, if you go and try to work for a business, and you have a 4-year degree in business administration, but so far have only flown airplanes for a living, you're still probably gonna be starting at the bottom of the totem pole. You haven't "logged your time".
And at least for young guys starting in the industry, getting a degree in aviation can really streamline the process. Being able to able apply flight training towards college credit is a pretty big boost.
And what about earning an undergrad in aviation, and then a graduate in, for example, business? A plan I'm currently considering.
My point is don't get the degree solely to satisfy the airline, get the degree to satisfy yourself, have something you'd be relatively happy doing if you lose medical/get furloughed/"whatever" and still support your family.
You can go 'air science', but if you decide to get out of aviation, an air science degree and $80 will get ya two $10's, six $5's, ten $1's and one $20 bill.
You can go 'air science', but if you decide to get out of aviation, an air science degree and $80 will get ya two $10's, six $5's, ten $1's and one $20 bill.
C150J
Well-Known Member
I guess the grass is always greener. I'm at an Ivy League school wishing I went to UND/WMI. Although I have several lucrative non-aviation opportunities after school that I definitely wouldn't be offered with an aviation degree (more nepotism than anything else, but we know aviation is the same way), I think the "good" aviation schools have done a great job on "fallback curriculum."
That being said, I think I actually am becoming more of a well-rounded person with the liberal arts education. My major deals with psychopathology and government, so it covers a wide array of subject material. I actually have a legitimate 2 cents worth in non-flying conversations these days!
One more thing: if you go to a school known for high-workload, it might get in the way of your flying career. I matriculated with 350 hours, and am a junior with 500. I can BARELY fly 2-3 times a month during academic session, and have falled into that 61.57 instrument "grace period" twice (something I NEVER thought I'd be doing). I'm very fortunate to have gotten my private, instrument, and multi in high school, as there would be NO WAY to do it now.
As you can see, I'm somewhat torn between aviation, school, and my choice for college. However, I can't say that I'm extremely unhappy here, and I think I won't be regretting a liberal arts education. After all, we're people before we're pilots (there was a beautifully-written post concerning this last week).
My .24 cents...
J.
That being said, I think I actually am becoming more of a well-rounded person with the liberal arts education. My major deals with psychopathology and government, so it covers a wide array of subject material. I actually have a legitimate 2 cents worth in non-flying conversations these days!
One more thing: if you go to a school known for high-workload, it might get in the way of your flying career. I matriculated with 350 hours, and am a junior with 500. I can BARELY fly 2-3 times a month during academic session, and have falled into that 61.57 instrument "grace period" twice (something I NEVER thought I'd be doing). I'm very fortunate to have gotten my private, instrument, and multi in high school, as there would be NO WAY to do it now.
As you can see, I'm somewhat torn between aviation, school, and my choice for college. However, I can't say that I'm extremely unhappy here, and I think I won't be regretting a liberal arts education. After all, we're people before we're pilots (there was a beautifully-written post concerning this last week).
My .24 cents...
J.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Here I go, sticking my nose out again, ready to get hit.
I am disappointed at the belief that the false "American Dream" is still being propogated by public education. You know, this one:
"Go to school, get a college degree, get a good job, work 40 years for Big, Inc. and retire at 60."
The only correct part of that statement is that a college degree will help you get a job.
Jobs should be viewed as a temporary situation. The American Dream is that of competitive capitalism, not working for The Man.
Take our webmaster here for example. Yes he has a "good job" if that isn't an oxymoron, but he is also and entrepreneurial captilist (a good thing!). If he wasn't, we wouldn't have this excellent website and forum for our hours and hours of enjoyment.
Young people (and some of you older ones like me), a job should be just considered one leg, and one you eventually want to cut off. Make yourself many legged. Diversify your income! I was taught at a young age that I needed to have several sources in case one blows up.
The problem with "a job" is that in almost all cases you are trading hours for dollars. Time is something we cannot get more of on our own.
An employer is employing you so he/she can generate more time by duplication. I have found it to be true time and time again that an employer will never pay me what I'm worth, but just enough to keep me from leaving.
I had to learn this the hard way on more than one occasion. For example:
[story mode]
I was a commission salesman at a printing firm. I starved for the first 6 months until I figured out the system. Finally I got my big break and landed a large contract where my commission would have been close to 10k (in 1992 this was a very nice chunk of change.)
Imagine my disappointment when I got a check for 3k. Well I went right in to the manager's office and found out that I was being "promoted to a salary" position. I replied I didn't want it - I wanted to stay on commission. It was "not an option." "John I can't pay you that much money! That's more than I make!"
I resisted the urge to say that I earned it more than he did, but I immediately began looking for other opportunities.
[/story]
This happened more than once in my life and I finally realized that if I want to make what I am worth I need to work for ME.
I don't use very much learned in my expensive and time consuming college education in running my own business. It does not require a college degree to incorporate in any state than I know of.
If I could do it over I would have started out right after high school and attended night courses on business and specific courses about my chosen line of work. Other courses like World History, Anthro, Psych, etc would be nice but I would have considered those "electives."
I am disappointed at the belief that the false "American Dream" is still being propogated by public education. You know, this one:
"Go to school, get a college degree, get a good job, work 40 years for Big, Inc. and retire at 60."
The only correct part of that statement is that a college degree will help you get a job.
Jobs should be viewed as a temporary situation. The American Dream is that of competitive capitalism, not working for The Man.
Take our webmaster here for example. Yes he has a "good job" if that isn't an oxymoron, but he is also and entrepreneurial captilist (a good thing!). If he wasn't, we wouldn't have this excellent website and forum for our hours and hours of enjoyment.
Young people (and some of you older ones like me), a job should be just considered one leg, and one you eventually want to cut off. Make yourself many legged. Diversify your income! I was taught at a young age that I needed to have several sources in case one blows up.
The problem with "a job" is that in almost all cases you are trading hours for dollars. Time is something we cannot get more of on our own.
An employer is employing you so he/she can generate more time by duplication. I have found it to be true time and time again that an employer will never pay me what I'm worth, but just enough to keep me from leaving.
I had to learn this the hard way on more than one occasion. For example:
[story mode]
I was a commission salesman at a printing firm. I starved for the first 6 months until I figured out the system. Finally I got my big break and landed a large contract where my commission would have been close to 10k (in 1992 this was a very nice chunk of change.)
Imagine my disappointment when I got a check for 3k. Well I went right in to the manager's office and found out that I was being "promoted to a salary" position. I replied I didn't want it - I wanted to stay on commission. It was "not an option." "John I can't pay you that much money! That's more than I make!"
I resisted the urge to say that I earned it more than he did, but I immediately began looking for other opportunities.
[/story]
This happened more than once in my life and I finally realized that if I want to make what I am worth I need to work for ME.
I don't use very much learned in my expensive and time consuming college education in running my own business. It does not require a college degree to incorporate in any state than I know of.
If I could do it over I would have started out right after high school and attended night courses on business and specific courses about my chosen line of work. Other courses like World History, Anthro, Psych, etc would be nice but I would have considered those "electives."
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
Tenney, I agree with everything you say. The only reason to employ employees (outside of the govt') is to use their labor to make more money, and, consequently, most employees bring in more value than they ever see. But you have to remember that not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur. Not everyone has the proper skill set; not everyone has the capacity (or willingness) to absorb the additional risk. Pushing someone to be an entrepreneur who is not prepared for the difficulties and risks that entails is simply courting disaster.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone has the proper skill set; not everyone has the capacity (or willingness) to absorb the additional risk.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to jump on this. At the turn of the 20th century (circa 1900) 90% of the work force was either a business owner or self-employed.
100 years later it is about face.
2 points:
1) If you can become a commercial pilot/CFI then yes you do have all the skills necessary to become a business owner. You have jumped through the FAA hoops (and others) to get to those ratings. (Unless of course you went to one of those "Factory" schools that just pumps out CFIs.)
2) My point is you are facing the additional risk anyway! No one is promised a "free ride" in life. By the time you reach 60 you will have worked as hard (or harder) as an employee than a business owner. And you will have very little to show for it.
I had to start out with a job or two in each industry I have been in. This was necessary for training and experience.
To make the jump to business owner didn't require any knowledge or savvy really, it's more about attitude. Attitude and knowing limitations, I suppose. Being a little crazy doesn't hurt either.
It's crazy to start a computer company in your garage (Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, etc)
It's crazy to sell low quality hamburgers that are not healthy all over the world (Ray Croc - MacDonalds)
It's crazy to open up a store right next to a shopping center and sell everything at twice the price (7-11, other convenient stores)
It's crazy to sell coffee at 4x the price in a library-book store (Starbucks)
Not everyone has the proper skill set; not everyone has the capacity (or willingness) to absorb the additional risk.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to jump on this. At the turn of the 20th century (circa 1900) 90% of the work force was either a business owner or self-employed.
100 years later it is about face.
2 points:
1) If you can become a commercial pilot/CFI then yes you do have all the skills necessary to become a business owner. You have jumped through the FAA hoops (and others) to get to those ratings. (Unless of course you went to one of those "Factory" schools that just pumps out CFIs.)
2) My point is you are facing the additional risk anyway! No one is promised a "free ride" in life. By the time you reach 60 you will have worked as hard (or harder) as an employee than a business owner. And you will have very little to show for it.
I had to start out with a job or two in each industry I have been in. This was necessary for training and experience.
To make the jump to business owner didn't require any knowledge or savvy really, it's more about attitude. Attitude and knowing limitations, I suppose. Being a little crazy doesn't hurt either.
It's crazy to start a computer company in your garage (Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, etc)
It's crazy to sell low quality hamburgers that are not healthy all over the world (Ray Croc - MacDonalds)
It's crazy to open up a store right next to a shopping center and sell everything at twice the price (7-11, other convenient stores)
It's crazy to sell coffee at 4x the price in a library-book store (Starbucks)
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
In defense of my point:
1) the turn of the century (circa 1900s) was a very different time. The population was predominately rural, and approximately 40% of the workforce was involved with family farming. The population today is primarily urban/suburban, and I think the farming numbers today are approximately 3%. Moreover, the costs of entry to many businesses is far higher today than it was 100 years ago. Industry is more complicated; tools and equipment are more expensive. I'm not going to get into a debate about which is better, but it is different.
2) One also might say that a law school graduate would have all of the skills necessary to become a business owner, but I know for a fact that isn't true. There is nothing taught in law school (or for that matter in commercial/CFI training) about business financing, managing employees, managing payroll, marketing, business regulation, or any of the other, varied tasks required to run a business. Law school teaches you how to be a lawyer (sort of); flight training teaches you how to be a commercial pilot/CFI; neither teaches the fundamental skills for business ownership.
3) You are right: today, employees always are at risk of a layoff; there is no promise of a "free ride." But, you can't honestly argue that starting a business carries no more risk than taking a job. The business failure rate is far higher than the layoff rate for employees. Further, an employee does not carry the downside risk of a business failure; whereas an entrepreneur (in most cases) will have put at least some of his/her own money on the line to be lost in the event of failure (the reverse, of course is that the entrepreneur carries upside risk, as well, while the employee generally doesn't). In fact, every great entrepreneurial story I'm aware of includes at least one disaster or near-disaster (Kroc would have been ruined if he hadn't convinced the McDonald's to sell-out; the Kings had a prior business which failed completely). Not everyone is comfortable with or suited to that kind of risk.
4) Most entrepreneurs are (to the rest of us) a little crazy. I meet a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners in my work, and they all are far more comfortable with risk than I would every be (I am the prototypical lawyer: conservative and risk-adverse). Entrepreneurs are comfortable making big decisions involving lots of money and the fate of the business. Those of us who aren't comfortable with risk or with making quick, important decisions probably won't do well in that capacity (see #3).
5) There are some occupations which simply are not suited for entrepreneurialship (is that a word??). For example, if your dream is to fly 747s, you basically have two choices: work for someone else, or become really, really, really wealthy.
In any case, if you do have the stomach for it, setting out on your own and casting off the yoke of an employer taking his/her own cut of your efforts can be very rewarding, financially and mental. But it is a mistake to think that everyone can do it, because not everyone can.
Now, if you want to talk about the masses rising up against their capitalist oppressors, then we'll have some fun. Viva la revolucion!
MF
1) the turn of the century (circa 1900s) was a very different time. The population was predominately rural, and approximately 40% of the workforce was involved with family farming. The population today is primarily urban/suburban, and I think the farming numbers today are approximately 3%. Moreover, the costs of entry to many businesses is far higher today than it was 100 years ago. Industry is more complicated; tools and equipment are more expensive. I'm not going to get into a debate about which is better, but it is different.
2) One also might say that a law school graduate would have all of the skills necessary to become a business owner, but I know for a fact that isn't true. There is nothing taught in law school (or for that matter in commercial/CFI training) about business financing, managing employees, managing payroll, marketing, business regulation, or any of the other, varied tasks required to run a business. Law school teaches you how to be a lawyer (sort of); flight training teaches you how to be a commercial pilot/CFI; neither teaches the fundamental skills for business ownership.
3) You are right: today, employees always are at risk of a layoff; there is no promise of a "free ride." But, you can't honestly argue that starting a business carries no more risk than taking a job. The business failure rate is far higher than the layoff rate for employees. Further, an employee does not carry the downside risk of a business failure; whereas an entrepreneur (in most cases) will have put at least some of his/her own money on the line to be lost in the event of failure (the reverse, of course is that the entrepreneur carries upside risk, as well, while the employee generally doesn't). In fact, every great entrepreneurial story I'm aware of includes at least one disaster or near-disaster (Kroc would have been ruined if he hadn't convinced the McDonald's to sell-out; the Kings had a prior business which failed completely). Not everyone is comfortable with or suited to that kind of risk.
4) Most entrepreneurs are (to the rest of us) a little crazy. I meet a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners in my work, and they all are far more comfortable with risk than I would every be (I am the prototypical lawyer: conservative and risk-adverse). Entrepreneurs are comfortable making big decisions involving lots of money and the fate of the business. Those of us who aren't comfortable with risk or with making quick, important decisions probably won't do well in that capacity (see #3).
5) There are some occupations which simply are not suited for entrepreneurialship (is that a word??). For example, if your dream is to fly 747s, you basically have two choices: work for someone else, or become really, really, really wealthy.
In any case, if you do have the stomach for it, setting out on your own and casting off the yoke of an employer taking his/her own cut of your efforts can be very rewarding, financially and mental. But it is a mistake to think that everyone can do it, because not everyone can.
Now, if you want to talk about the masses rising up against their capitalist oppressors, then we'll have some fun. Viva la revolucion!
MF
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm on the wrong website. An intellectual discussion with good points and both sides LISTENING to each other?
[/ QUOTE ]
My bad. Won't happen again.
MF
I think I'm on the wrong website. An intellectual discussion with good points and both sides LISTENING to each other?
[/ QUOTE ]
My bad. Won't happen again.
MF
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
I don't know about failed business statistics. Remember that for every failed business there is now an educated businessman who is much more likely to succeed on the next venture.
This is certainly not my first try at the business game
So I guess my success rate is only 20%. You know what though? That's a winner! With 4 losers behind me I am now successful.
As far as all those financial risks you are talking about, that's mostly fiction in my case. I very rarely put up any of my own money, and then only when I have it to spare.
Banks don't lend money to people any more unless they can pay it back fast! (Sad but true.)
This is certainly not my first try at the business game
So I guess my success rate is only 20%. You know what though? That's a winner! With 4 losers behind me I am now successful.
As far as all those financial risks you are talking about, that's mostly fiction in my case. I very rarely put up any of my own money, and then only when I have it to spare.
Banks don't lend money to people any more unless they can pay it back fast! (Sad but true.)
TheShortOne
Well-Known Member
Why does someone have to lose in order for you to win? Why can't we all rise up and do well together? Why is our society so driven by money? (I realize that you have to have money in order to do anything, but when /why did it become such a big part of our lives?)
Yes, you can go to school and get your degree in buisness or engineering or finance or whatever and get a job that you'll hate and make the money you "need" to survive. Or you can take classes you like, get a degree that intrests you and do something you love. Example: I am at University of Michigan, and I was an engineer up until this past fall (that's 2 solid years of physics, math etc) Last year about this time I came to the realization that i was absolutly MISERABLE as an engineer. I hated everything I was doing and as a result I was doing terrible (grades wise). Now, when i finally decided i needed to switch to a liberal arts degree my parents were less than pleased. My mom is a teacher and my dad is an engineer for a large construction firm. My mom wanted me to stay in engineering because when she graduated college, she had to work at Meijers (similar to walmart) for like 3 years before she was able to find a job. My dad wanted me to be an engineer for obvious reasons (he is) but he also told me I had to do what would make me happy. So I made the switch to LSA and my mom came around and now I am studying Anthropology. It is very interesting to me, I love my classes and I don't mind doing the homework for them because I like them. I finally have a decent grade point, and I am generally a happier person. When I end up graduating I think right now I want to go into social work to try and help people out. If that doesn't pan out, I might go into medical research. There are a million jobs out there for someone with a liberal arts degree, you don't have to have one in one of the fields where you have an automatic job (not that you'll get one automatically, but you have automatic choice of a job). The other thing i realized when i switched to Anthro is that if i do end up in social work, I'll be making prolly around 40K a year. If i was an engineer i'd be makeing around 3x as much. In anycase, don't let money be your driving force. I guess that goes back to my first set of questions...why is our society so money driven? Why is money used as an indicator to who has succeeded and who has not?
Just my $.02
Yes, you can go to school and get your degree in buisness or engineering or finance or whatever and get a job that you'll hate and make the money you "need" to survive. Or you can take classes you like, get a degree that intrests you and do something you love. Example: I am at University of Michigan, and I was an engineer up until this past fall (that's 2 solid years of physics, math etc) Last year about this time I came to the realization that i was absolutly MISERABLE as an engineer. I hated everything I was doing and as a result I was doing terrible (grades wise). Now, when i finally decided i needed to switch to a liberal arts degree my parents were less than pleased. My mom is a teacher and my dad is an engineer for a large construction firm. My mom wanted me to stay in engineering because when she graduated college, she had to work at Meijers (similar to walmart) for like 3 years before she was able to find a job. My dad wanted me to be an engineer for obvious reasons (he is) but he also told me I had to do what would make me happy. So I made the switch to LSA and my mom came around and now I am studying Anthropology. It is very interesting to me, I love my classes and I don't mind doing the homework for them because I like them. I finally have a decent grade point, and I am generally a happier person. When I end up graduating I think right now I want to go into social work to try and help people out. If that doesn't pan out, I might go into medical research. There are a million jobs out there for someone with a liberal arts degree, you don't have to have one in one of the fields where you have an automatic job (not that you'll get one automatically, but you have automatic choice of a job). The other thing i realized when i switched to Anthro is that if i do end up in social work, I'll be making prolly around 40K a year. If i was an engineer i'd be makeing around 3x as much. In anycase, don't let money be your driving force. I guess that goes back to my first set of questions...why is our society so money driven? Why is money used as an indicator to who has succeeded and who has not?
Just my $.02
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
I lost you there.
I don't know what you are saying there but let me guess.
It really isn't about money, it's more about time and lifestyle. There are some good paying jobs out there where you have no control of your life (like airline captain for example. Or CEO for that matter.)
Only a business owner is going to have control of TIME.
There are very few jobs out there that are not on the trading "hours for dollars" concept.
I can recommend a couple of books on this concept - "Rich Dad Poor Dad" and "Cashflow Quadrant" by Robert Kiyosaki.
He's really in to real estate (and I am not) but the concepts he writes about are priceless.
I don't know what you are saying there but let me guess.
It really isn't about money, it's more about time and lifestyle. There are some good paying jobs out there where you have no control of your life (like airline captain for example. Or CEO for that matter.)
Only a business owner is going to have control of TIME.
There are very few jobs out there that are not on the trading "hours for dollars" concept.
I can recommend a couple of books on this concept - "Rich Dad Poor Dad" and "Cashflow Quadrant" by Robert Kiyosaki.
He's really in to real estate (and I am not) but the concepts he writes about are priceless.