Colgan Pilots ALPA Organizing Committee

We need a legal collective bargaining voice.

ONLY ALPA (or a LEGAL union certified by the NMB) can provide that.

ALPA will give us career insurance.

We are bottom rung at Colgan, simple as that. It is time to raise the bar. ALPA will provide us with the resources to do so.

We are professional airline pilots first, we need to be treated as such. We can be treated like a real professional with a LEGAL binding contract.

67,000 Pilots in the US are ALPA

94% of airlines are unionized

ALPA provides benefits that will enable us to help the company grow, protect ourselves, and further our career.
 
Amazingpilot I think you are missing the point. Your company has made no effort to get input from the pilots in the past. I suppose they could claim ignorance of pilot needs, but some how I doubt that. So all of the sudden when threatened with their pilot group organizing, they agree to hear the pilots needs. That's great. It means they are responsive.

Two problems though.

Say that they do agree to meet what you guys are asking for. The union effort dies off because people see the positive change coming and loose interest in ALPA. What is to stop the company from going back on the things they said they would do? The contract? Oh wait, you don't have one of those.

And even if they do make the changes and actually stick to them, what about the next time you want something. Do you think they are even going to listen?

Additionally ALPA is a whole lot more then just getting a contract in place. Educate yourself a bit.
 
Who put together ColganPilotGroup.com?

The Colgans?

or

Is there opposition from within the pilot group to a union?
 
I think educating myself starts with a whole lot more then just deciding to join a union by the actions of my peers. So if you consider joining your union BOBDUCK, I think I'll do my ressearch and make MY OWN informed decision. Apparently you and I have different opinions of what educated is.
I believe the Colgan Air Pilot Group was formed by some of the senior pilots who have been here for at least 2-3 years.
Maybe its a stall tactic by managment, but who knows.
I think most pilots here are under the motivation to get there time and move on, Colgan has always been that type of company.
I hear ALPA supporters talking about protection all the time, but I know pilots who have been working here unprotected for years and years, I also know of said unprotected pilots moving on to major legacy carriers.
So my question is that why can't a private colgan union constitute an adequate collective barganing device?
 
AmazingPilot said:
I think educating myself starts with a whole lot more then just deciding to join a union by the actions of my peers. So if you consider joining your union BOBDUCK, I think I'll do my ressearch and make MY OWN informed decision. Apparently you and I have different opinions of what educated is.
I believe the Colgan Air Pilot Group was formed by some of the senior pilots who have been here for at least 2-3 years.
Maybe its a stall tactic by managment, but who knows.
I think most pilots here are under the motivation to get there time and move on, Colgan has always been that type of company.
I hear ALPA supporters talking about protection all the time, but I know pilots who have been working here unprotected for years and years, I also know of said unprotected pilots moving on to major legacy carriers.
So my question is that why can't a private colgan union constitute an adequate collective barganing device?
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A few points. First and foremost BobDDuck is an ALPA member. Secondly, think about it there are 67,000 members of ALPA and 94% of airlines are UNIONIZED. It is time for us at Colgan to join this fraternity.

Take a look at what happened to private pilot groups at Continental and FedEX. They both went to ALPA. It has been proven that private pilot groups DO NOT WORK.

A private Colgan group would BE ILLEGAL UNLESS the National Mediation Board certifies it. The ONLY way it would be certified is if you return your card and then the NMB conducts a vote with the Pilot group and a majority vote for an internal pilot group is represented.

By definition the Colgan pilot group is acting ILLEGALLY to even mention a collective bargaining voice on their website.

You say you want to move on to greener pastures, we all hope to. However, take a look at some of our senior captains. Why haven't they been able to move on? What happens if another 9/11 happens tomorrow? Would you drive a car without insurance? Why should we go through our careers at Colgan without an insurance policy? Our insurance policy IS ALPA.

If you have questions concerning the union please give me a call at 732-306-7795.
 
Seggy said:
A few points. First and foremost BobDDuck is an ALPA member. Secondly, think about it there are 67,000 members of ALPA and 94% of airlines are UNIONIZED. It is time for us at Colgan to join this fraternity.

Take a look at what happened to private pilot groups at Continental and FedEX. They both went to ALPA. It has been proven that private pilot groups DO NOT WORK.

A private Colgan group would BE ILLEGAL UNLESS the National Mediation Board certifies it. The ONLY way it would be certified is if you return your card and then the NMB conducts a vote with the Pilot group and a majority vote for an internal pilot group is represented.

By definition the Colgan pilot group is acting ILLEGALLY to even mention a collective bargaining voice on their website.

You say you want to move on to greener pastures, we all hope to. However, take a look at some of our senior captains. Why haven't they been able to move on? What happens if another 9/11 happens tomorrow? Would you drive a car without insurance? Why should we go through our careers at Colgan without an insurance policy? Our insurance policy IS ALPA.

If you have questions concerning the union please give me a call at 732-306-7795.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining
I don't believe ALPA has coined or copyrighted the term Collective Barganing, so anyone can use it, pilot group or person.
What is to make you think that a private pilot group won't be able to drum the same type of support from the National Mediation Board? I think if the pilot group decides that a private union is the way to go then they will be able to gain support through the appropriate channels.

Maybe the senior captains here haven't moved on because they don't want to, perhaps they enjoy having a good line every week and not having to commute across the country to work. I think the big difference here, particularly between you and I, that instead of looking down at our senior pilots here I've decided to look up to them.

If another 9-11 happens there is no union on the face of this earth that will be able to help the industry or the pilots. Last I checked with the majority of ALPA backed airline companies there was still alot of furloughs and layoffs after 9-11, so where is the protection there.

I wouldn't drive a car without insurance because it is a legal requirement to maintain adequate car insurance. Additionally a car is a physical object, and I consider the pilot group a whole lot more than just a hunk of metal that leaks oil and breaks down from time to time.
 
AmazingPilot said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining
I don't believe ALPA has coined or copyrighted the term Collective Barganing, so anyone can use it, pilot group or person.
What is to make you think that a private pilot group won't be able to drum the same type of support from the National Mediation Board? I think if the pilot group decides that a private union is the way to go then they will be able to gain support through the appropriate channels.

Maybe the senior captains here haven't moved on because they don't want to, perhaps they enjoy having a good line every week and not having to commute across the country to work. I think the big difference here, particularly between you and I, that instead of looking down at our senior pilots here I've decided to look up to them.

If another 9-11 happens there is no union on the face of this earth that will be able to help the industry or the pilots. Last I checked with the majority of ALPA backed airline companies there was still alot of furloughs and layoffs after 9-11, so where is the protection there.

I wouldn't drive a car without insurance because it is a legal requirement to maintain adequate car insurance. Additionally a car is a physical object, and I consider the pilot group a whole lot more than just a hunk of metal that leaks oil and breaks down from time to time.
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First, they CAN NOT ACT as a collective bargaining voice UNLESS they are certified by the NMB. So then return your card and if they DO have enough support and is voted in by the Colgan pilots they WILL be the collective bargaining voice. Until then RETURN the card so we do have a RIGHT to vote.

Secondly, I have the utmost respect for our senior captains here. WHERE DID I SAY THAT I DID NOT RESPECT THEM? I learned a lot from them, respect what they did for the company and want to HELP them gain what they deserve. They have NO matching 401K plan, no solid retirement plan, no insurance past the age of 60 provided by the company, no flight benefits once they retire, no profit sharing plan. THEY could gain the most from what a union has to offer.

Yes ALPA carriers did have to furlough after 9/11 which is my point. Many of these furloughed had benefits that extended during furlough that enabled them to retain flight benefits, to look for other jobs, ALPA sponsored career fairs, etc.

And your last point. How do you think management sees us? They see us as disposable. We deserve more than that. We need insurance in the form of a contract to PROTECT our legal rights.

Listen, why don't you give me a call. I posted my number, sent you a PM, and would love to discuss this further. You have good points and a conversation over the phone would accomplish a lot.
 
It's confusing working off of two threads.

First off, as Seggy said, I am an ALPA member already. Different local then you guys would be if you join, but same organization.

Secondly, I certainly hope that you do your research. In the end, whether you vote in ALPA or not (and if you DO vote in ALPA every decision you vote on down the road) it is a decision you will have to live with. What I meant about educating yourself is that ALPA is a hell of a lot more then just a bargaining unit. It seems like the guys pushing this Colgan Pilot Group are strictly looking at it from a bargaining view point.

Example, I flew with a captain last month who went to get his medical and his AME found a slight heart murmur. Not a big deal really but something that needed to be check out. He went and saw his regular doctor and after some tests they found that a small section of the heart on the front side was more rigid then it was supposed to be and was causing a slight leak back during contractions. This guy then spent several hours on the phone the next day with the ALPA Aeromedical Department discussing what this meant as far as his ability to fly. The people he spoke with were all AMEs and specialists who are paid BY ALPA to provide consultation to ALPA pilots. If he had tried to go do this on his own a) who knows where/when he would have found these consultants and b) what it would have cost.

Another example (and this was in this months ALPA magazine), Air Safety. Most accidents are written off to pilot error. There was a crash a few years back of a Metroliner. Of course after their investigation the NTSB said the pilots messed up. Basically the FO didn't maintain a climb while departing an airport in IFR conditions and the CA didn't backstop him. The rolled right and crashed into the ground. ALPA reviewed the crash and did a bunch of their own investigation. They found there was a problem with the stick pusher. It was a known problem with the Metro (maybe one of our resident Metro guys can clarify) but somehow the NTSB had decided that wasn't a factor. So here we are a whole bunch of years later and ALPA convinced the NTSB to revise their accident report and finding to somewhat exonerate the pilots. Yes, I know... they are dead so it doesn't really matter, but at least some of the blame is no longer placed on them.

Say you do get a contract hammered out with an in house union. What normally happens once you are operating with a CBA is the company will do their best to abuse it. Some times they do it to show their power, some times to save money and some times just because they make a mistake. Your only recourse is to grieve it. Will you (a small 450 pilot in house union) have the resources to pursue a grievance through a GRC and potential arbitration? I some how doubt it.

AmazingPilot, don't for one second think I am knocking you here. It is 100% your decision to make. The only thing I am saying is that the bigger picture is about much more then getting representation. It's about what that representation can offer.
 
byarid said:
Who are the Colgan Pilots ALPA Organizing Committee?

Whoever they are, I cannot find out from the company or after posting a request to ALPA (info@alpa.org) who these people are.

I was willing to remain netural regarding unions and Colgan Air. But, that has now changed as the Organizing Committee have submitted my name to ALPA for unsolicated mailings.

Submitting my name to ALPA without my knowledge is disrespectful to me and the other Professional Colgan Air pilots whose names were given to ALPA.

So, I am off the fence and my vote is NO to a union. If this is the way the Organizing Committee and their handlers from ALPA is going to treat people, I want no part of it.

NOTE to the readers of this posting - Check out WWW.unionfacts.com. ALPA CEO makes over $400,000 with a membership of over 61,000. Their operation budget looks like the buget of a small third world country.

One more analogy: I surmize ALPA is like our Congress - Promise a chicken in every pot; pay your taxes (dues); and get nothing in return.
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let me ask you this bud, do you plan on staying at Colgan the rest of your life? I'm assuming the answer is no. If thats the case, where do you plan to go? A major I presume?

Southwest?
Fedex?
Alaska?
Continental?
united?
Delta?

Which one of these airlines is not unionized?
What makes you think it's ok to have a union at the major level and not at the regional level?
Would you like to reap the benefits of what your fellow ALPA pilots have done, without putting in your dues?
Come one day when your at your interview or are hired and your signing your ALPA card.......what makes you so happy to sign then?

Don't be expecting to come to one of these airlines and reap the benefits our brothers and sisters haefv sacrificed for when you don't even support it at a grass roots level.
 
I think a lot of what's going on with the senior guys (and this is outside looking in, mind you), is they are used to dealing with the Colgan family. From what I've heard, this was a GOOD thing. They would give you their word, and you could trust it. Folks, that has changed. The management that bought Colgan Airlines can NOT be trusted. For example, we've heard that we're gonna losing all the NWA flying if we don't sign their "last, best and final" offer. A month later, a 10 year deal with NWA is announced. Which means, if we HAD signed the deal, we just would have had a crappy contract for another 5 years. They had the flying already lined up, but they were trying to brow beat us into caving. Luckily, our negotiating committee told them where they could stick it.

The same management team sent multiple letters via FedEx on a SATURDAY to our families saying how we were gonna shut the airline down if we didn't agree to this sub-standard contract. They don't have the money to give us the money and benefits we deserve, but they have the money to FedEx 1200+ letters on a Saturday.....TWICE?

Last year, we were told we had a "surplus of pilots," and we were put on a hiring freeze. In addition, they cancelled upgrade classes as well. If we wanted to continue to grow, we had to sign their offer. Now, we're understaffed and cancelling due to lack of staffing. If they hadn't tried the surplus of pilots rouse, continued to hire FOs and upgrade CAs, we more than likely wouldn't be cancelling flights and bidding on lines with 93+ hours of block.

These are the guys that bought Colgan. These are the guys whomever the Colgan pilots choose to represent them will be dealing with. It's a totally different ball game than when the Colgans ran the show.
 
kellwolf said:
I think a lot of what's going on with the senior guys (and this is outside looking in, mind you), is they are used to dealing with the Colgan family. From what I've heard, this was a GOOD thing. They would give you their word, and you could trust it. Folks, that has changed. The management that bought Colgan Airlines can NOT be trusted. For example, we've heard that we're gonna losing all the NWA flying if we don't sign their "last, best and final" offer. A month later, a 10 year deal with NWA is announced. Which means, if we HAD signed the deal, we just would have had a crappy contract for another 5 years. They had the flying already lined up, but they were trying to brow beat us into caving. Luckily, our negotiating committee told them where they could stick it.

The same management team sent multiple letters via FedEx on a SATURDAY to our families saying how we were gonna shut the airline down if we didn't agree to this sub-standard contract. They don't have the money to give us the money and benefits we deserve, but they have the money to FedEx 1200+ letters on a Saturday.....TWICE?

Last year, we were told we had a "surplus of pilots," and we were put on a hiring freeze. In addition, they cancelled upgrade classes as well. If we wanted to continue to grow, we had to sign their offer. Now, we're understaffed and cancelling due to lack of staffing. If they hadn't tried the surplus of pilots rouse, continued to hire FOs and upgrade CAs, we more than likely wouldn't be cancelling flights and bidding on lines with 93+ hours of block.

These are the guys that bought Colgan. These are the guys whomever the Colgan pilots choose to represent them will be dealing with. It's a totally different ball game than when the Colgans ran the show.
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:yeahthat: I don't think Kell is wrong too often.. and I can second the fact that mgmt is a bunch of crooks who think they can pull the wool over 1200+ pilots... ALPA can only help ya. Call it "Career Insurance"
 
lowery21 said:
Southwest has its own union.
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Read back a little further and this is covered. Yes, they have their own union, but they still pay "consulting fees" to ALPA. Why? When you want to know something/get advice, you go to the group that's been around for the longest with the most experience. ALPA's been around for about twice as long as SWA has existed.

And comparing Colgan and SWA is pretty far out there. From what I've heard from some of the people currently working there, Colgan has a lot of guys that are just happy to be there. Basically, that translates to giving up an awful lot just to keep from going back to instructing or, worse, trying to find another low time regional job. I doubt the guys at SWA have that issue.
 
Sorry, I wasn't trying to compare. However, I had no idea about the consulting fees. That is interesting.
 
Ya know, reading the stuff on the colgan pilot group website is pretty entertaining. Are there really people out there as naive (read stupid) as that SCE fo who posted the first feedback letter. It's almost sickening.

I don't think ALPA is going to have all the answers for us or even most, but the colgan pilot group is a joke. Less power than an A model saab on a 100 degree day is about where I would rate it.
 
Rocketman99 said:
Ya know, reading the stuff on the colgan pilot group website is pretty entertaining. Are there really people out there as naive (read stupid) as that SCE fo who posted the first feedback letter. It's almost sickening.

I don't think ALPA is going to have all the answers for us or even most, but the colgan pilot group is a joke. Less power than an A model saab on a 100 degree day is about where I would rate it.
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Ignorance is a double-edged sword, if you really are in support of this union I wouldn't bash or label the pilots who will be the ones supporting it.
Pilots like that SCE FO will be the ones who get this union off the ground.
I personally know the people who formed the Colgan Pilot Group and they seem to have a better grasp of what is going on then the Union Organizing Commitee.

I'm sure their are people on here who find what you post as entertaining and sickening, however we try and be respectful by biting our tongues.:cool:
 
Biting my tongue on this site if something I do most of the time, but sometimes ya gotta speak up. Like they say, you can't please all the people all the time..

I personally know the folks who formed the group as well, along with most of the base representatives. They are a bunch of really good people. The group could potentially be a great idea but it just doesn't seem like it's going to have any impact and I'll tell you why I say that. Our requests weren't listened to before in the almost two years I've been here and now that we are corporately owned I sure as hell don't think they'll be listened to now. Oh and those favors that we were able to get/work out that they threaten as going away? I'd love to know where those are cause I don't really recall seeing any, I'm kinda jealous.

Of course, if the pilot group is the way we end up going, I really hope they prove me wrong on all of this. All I really want is to be treated well and more often that not that hasn't happened the past several months. In the meantime, the little battle going on is getting pretty interesting.
 
Rocketman99 said:
Biting my tongue on this site if something I do most of the time, but sometimes ya gotta speak up. Like they say, you can't please all the people all the time..

I personally know the folks who formed the group as well, along with most of the base representatives. They are a bunch of really good people. The group could potentially be a great idea but it just doesn't seem like it's going to have any impact and I'll tell you why I say that. Our requests weren't listened to before in the almost two years I've been here and now that we are corporately owned I sure as hell don't think they'll be listened to now. Oh and those favors that we were able to get/work out that they threaten as going away? I'd love to know where those are cause I don't really recall seeing any, I'm kinda jealous.

Of course, if the pilot group is the way we end up going, I really hope they prove me wrong on all of this. All I really want is to be treated well and more often that not that hasn't happened the past several months. In the meantime, the little battle going on is getting pretty interesting.
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If it is any constelation, I know the main request by the pilot group will be compensation. If the company is not willing to change payscales in an attempt to diffuse the union, then I can guarantee that the Colgan Pilot Group will back the union and push for its formation.
 
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