Colgan hearings are complete and utter <..>

[SpiceWeasel]

So you fly an hour, have a five hour and some change layover and then fly another hour, and off for the day. That sounds like a gravy run. Or it sounds like freight. This is a regular schedule for that lifestyle.

But I'm no freight-dawg. I cannot sleep during the day, the best I can get during the day is 4 hours, and that's when I'm tired. My body is used to being up during the day. Even when you get accustomed to this schedule, it's tough to live 3-4 days of the week on the day schedule and then switch for the other 4-3 days to a night schedule.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

But that's the point, as professionals we measure our ability by previous events. However, as we fly more and more, we find that we've learned to fly fatigued (trust me, when I was a 1900 FO we flew fatigued) and we think it's ok. After awhile we just learn to deal, and frankly, if people would man up, and use their PIC authority to tell their boss that they "ain't goin" then fatigue wouldn't be a problem. You get 50 crewmembers on reduced rest to say, "sorry, we are unable to safely command the aircraft under these conditions," and the problem of the "pilot pushing." will go away.

What it really is is a culture among aviators. We're typically goal oriented type A personalities, and as a result we see things like fatigue as hurdles we need to jump over to complete the mission, or get the job done etc. Don't just ask me, read flight discipline, or for that matter, any book on human factors or pilot psychology, and you'll see why people bust mins, why people push duty times, and maybe you'll understand a little about why the industry is a jacked up as it is.

It's not just the Colgan job you are threatened with. Imagine showing up to an interview with a major, explaining to HR that you were fired for refusing a flight (calling in fatigued that turned out to be caused by you) "busting" a pc, or other "action"... Then imagine the guy next to you not having to do that. Do you think an HR department wants to hire somebody who will stand up to management?

They hold it over you that your current gig is the top of the hill for you... It would be like telling you that the 206 your flying is the best you will ever have it... and getting fired from that. Thanks PRIA

 

[BajtheJino]

But I'm no freight-dawg. I cannot sleep during the day, the best I can get during the day is 4 hours, and that's when I'm tired. My body is used to being up during the day. Even when you get accustomed to this schedule, it's tough to live 3-4 days of the week on the day schedule and then switch for the other 4-3 days to a night schedule.

Boo Hoo. I'll say it again, sounds like freight. You have just described my life for the last 2 1/2 years.

 

[ctab5060X]

Boo Hoo. I'll say it again, sounds like freight. You have just described my life for the last 2 1/2 years.

The problem doesn't lie in the scheduling of the flying. The problem lies in the scheduling of the pilots.

Someone with a highspeed line that flies them 4 nights a week all month can get their body in to a rhythm where they are used to the schedule. However, someone who is a reserve pilot, and at a company where the typical reserve schedules are daytime home reserve or airport reserve, getting thrown a highspeed late in the day can be hard to adjust too.

On top of that, the TLH one he posted is murder... you easily lose almost an hour due to van transportation to and from the hotel. :banghead:

 

[MFT1Air]

Hmmm, from a layperson. . .I do wish I could hear from a major. . .someone like Southwest Airlines perhaps?

. . . from some/any aviation entity who many perceive are doing it the right way.

Complaints about low pay - understandable; complaints about bad hours - I've heard that from well paid/trained pilots as well. . .

. . .comments from pilot of a few majors who complain about piss poor scheduling causing pilots to be asleep in the cockpit. Where's the analysis of those causes to ascertain ways to correct those problems?

Problems that could be perceived as secondary/tertiary factors in a crash.

Sounds like many are doing it wrong and/or don't perceive it as a problem.

 

[kellwolf]

Someone with a highspeed line that flies them 4 nights a week all month can get their body in to a rhythm where they are used to the schedule. However, someone who is a reserve pilot, and at a company where the typical reserve schedules are daytime home reserve or airport reserve, getting thrown a highspeed late in the day can be hard to adjust too.

Bingo. I had a 3 day trip with 5 am and 6 am shows. At the end of the third day, I was released at 9 am for 10 hours of rest then tossed on a high speed for that night. Yeah, I can make my body adjust THAT quickly. Right.

 

[Bumblebee]

Bingo. I had a 3 day trip with 5 am and 6 am shows. At the end of the third day, I was released at 9 am for 10 hours of rest then tossed on a high speed for that night. Yeah, I can make my body adjust THAT quickly. Right.

but it's legal, so suck it up and do it, you knew what you were getting into . . . and don't make any mistakes or you will be fried.:bangheadr fired!

 

[derg]

Southern or Deep?

 

[Bumblebee]

Southern or Deep?

I think breaded is Southern, right?

You should know... you work for suthernjets innanational.:laff:

 

[ppragman]

It's not just the Colgan job you are threatened with. Imagine showing up to an interview with a major, explaining to HR that you were fired for refusing a flight (calling in fatigued that turned out to be caused by you) "busting" a pc, or other "action"... Then imagine the guy next to you not having to do that. Do you think an HR department wants to hire somebody who will stand up to management?

They hold it over you that your current gig is the top of the hill for you... It would be like telling you that the 206 your flying is the best you will ever have it... and getting fired from that. Thanks PRIA

it doesn't matter if you're goin' to be fired for that, do it because its the right thing to do. What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

it doesn't matter if you're goin' to be fired for that, do it because its the right thing to do. What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

I guess it must be easier to stand on the shore and cast stones into a pond, than to throw stones in once your already swimming in it.

You've been flying for 4 hours in NE, dealing with a nor easter. Boston is all sorts of delayed, and when it's your turn to go, the destination airport is at 1/4mi , +BRSN. You are well within your duty limits... and are looking at 19-34 people who will have to buy their OWN hotel room if you don't make it. You stayed out a little late last night, so you are exhausted. You are pretty sure you can make that last flight, as you have another pilot and it's their leg anyways. Corporate culture pretty much stands at: if you call out - no need to come back the next day. Not to mention the paper work for a fatigue call, the investigation into why you became fatigued, the carpet dance, the passengers being told via CSR that the closest hotel with rooms in 25 minutes away, and they will have to pay because you feel tired etc. ( happened to me with a UM on board... going to make a 10 yr old kid pay?)

we all know whats wrong and right in this situation it's easy to say ,"oh yeah call out, better safe than alive" but until you have been there... and have your career on the line it always seems like an easy choice, and the closer you get to the endgame... the closer they look at all of your past.

 

[BajtheJino]

You stayed out a little late last night, so you are exhausted.

So its your fault your tired? You weren't grown up enough to realize that when you have a job that so demanding you can stay out and piss it up like you used to?
I think the FAA aught to make airlines increase pay and give more rest time so this situation doesn't happen?

 

[ppragman]

I guess it must be easier to stand on the shore and cast stones into a pond, than to throw stones in once your already swimming in it.

You've been flying for 4 hours in NE, dealing with a nor easter. Boston is all sorts of delayed, and when it's your turn to go, the destination airport is at 1/4mi , +BRSN. You are well within your duty limits... and are looking at 19-34 people who will have to buy their OWN hotel room if you don't make it. You stayed out a little late last night, so you are exhausted. You are pretty sure you can make that last flight, as you have another pilot and it's their leg anyways. Corporate culture pretty much stands at: if you call out - no need to come back the next day. Not to mention the paper work for a fatigue call, the investigation into why you became fatigued, the carpet dance, the passengers being told via CSR that the closest hotel with rooms in 25 minutes away, and they will have to pay because you feel tired etc. ( happened to me with a UM on board... going to make a 10 yr old kid pay?)

we all know whats wrong and right in this situation it's easy to say ,"oh yeah call out, better safe than alive" but until you have been there... and have your career on the line it always seems like an easy choice, and the closer you get to the endgame... the closer they look at all of your past.

Don't even think about trying to lecture me on the pressures you have to deal with with passengers, and conditions. I understand them, and deal with them. Depending on where you're going up here, if you don't make it in, these people don't eat. If you don't make it in, they don't get mail, sometimes for weeks. Feel noble all you want, but realize, every non-airline pilot who talks about this sort of thing on here gets crucified.

As for the second bolded deal, I've made plenty of those decisions. When was the last time you've slogged it out at 500AGL right on the ragged edge of illegal to stay VFR, with a mile of vis, blowing snow, and no GPS? How are you sure its a mile? How are you entirely sure its 500', you haven't reset your altimeter in a while, how are you even sure that you'll be able to even find your destination because there's no wx reporting there. Then when you get there, the runway is all jacked up by snow.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Don't even think about trying to lecture me on the pressures you have to deal with with passengers, and conditions. I understand them, and deal with them. Depending on where you're going up here, if you don't make it in, these people don't eat. If you don't make it in, they don't get mail, sometimes for weeks. Feel noble all you want, but realize, every non-airline pilot who talks about this sort of thing on here gets crucified.

As for the second bolded deal, I've made plenty of those decisions. When was the last time you've slogged it out at 500AGL right on the ragged edge of illegal to stay VFR, with a mile of vis, blowing snow, and no GPS? How are you sure its a mile? How are you entirely sure its 500', you haven't reset your altimeter in a while, how are you even sure that you'll be able to even find your destination because there's no wx reporting there. Then when you get there, the runway is all jacked up by snow.

Ick.

Takes a special kind of crazy to fly in Alaska.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

How many times has the company HQ been displaced? We have guys that have been here 6 years that have had 5 or more domiciles.

I have never moved for an airline. It just isn't possible. In my 2 years at a regional I had 4 bases. That is a new base about every 6 months.

The feds also need to look at 121 supplimental ops too. On call 24 hours a day is legal. Being up all day then get called out for a 16 hr trip at 11pm. You will now awake for over 24 hrs and completely legal in the regs. Make it an int'l trip and you can toss out the duty limits.

The regs are very outdated and need to be changed, correctly...

 

[surreal1221]

As you probably know, you do not have to have a CFI to instruct in -121 ops. The response was to the comment about no heads rolling. Again, I doubt they are still check airmen.

If they're no longer check airmen, that's fine enough for me.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

If Pinnacle REALLY was serious about safety and training standards they wouldn't have outside sim instructors and check pilots. It seems to me the people best able to teach you how to fly the aircraft are people who actually fly the aircraft.

I mention this because Mesa's starting to do the same thing. Sim instructors have a 96 hour guarantee here and they're paying CRJ instructors over 100Gs when they found they could find someone who just got furloughed from United/etc and pay them 45.

How can you say you're training standards are high when you outsource the teachers and evaluators?

 

[surreal1221]

Boo Hoo. I'll say it again, sounds like freight. You have just described my life for the last 2 1/2 years.

The badass that is BajtheJino continues. . .

Man, you're so cool!

You and ppragman should get hitched, telling how all of us should have done it your way on a constant basis sure contributes to quality discussion.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Don't even think about trying to lecture me on the pressures you have to deal with with passengers, and conditions. I understand them, and deal with them. Depending on where you're going up here, if you don't make it in, these people don't eat. If you don't make it in, they don't get mail, sometimes for weeks. Feel noble all you want, but realize, every non-airline pilot who talks about this sort of thing on here gets crucified.

As for the second bolded deal, I've made plenty of those decisions. When was the last time you've slogged it out at 500AGL right on the ragged edge of illegal to stay VFR, with a mile of vis, blowing snow, and no GPS? How are you sure its a mile? How are you entirely sure its 500', you haven't reset your altimeter in a while, how are you even sure that you'll be able to even find your destination because there's no wx reporting there. Then when you get there, the runway is all jacked up by snow.

So you're going to get on your high horse about duty issues and say you didn't or wouldn't fly, but then brag about getting it done when you prob. shouldn't have gone?

Right.

When was the last time you had 2 weeks of mail, pax, and food... but made the safe call not to go because you were tired? You like to flip flop a lot on issues. Call people out, but then tell tales of doing nearly the same stupid thing. I'm sure you would be pissed if I made a blanket statement, and said the reason that so many pilots die in Alaska is because they forsake safety, and go when the really know they shouldn't.

So which is it? Are you the hoss that gets it done, or the safety minded pilot that cancels flights, steps up to management and lays the career on the line?

In the end i wasn't trying to lecture you, but not coming from a 121 gig, you wont have faced the same challenges as a 121 pilot, so it's easy to armchair QB it. This gets the 121 guys pissed so they rip on the non 121 pilots. If your going to call out the actions of a crew, you had better have been there once.

 

[BajtheJino]

The badass that is BajtheJino continues. . .

Man, you're so cool!

You and ppragman should get hitched, telling how all of us should have done it your way on a constant basis sure contributes to quality discussion.

Sarcasm. Why would I expect anything from you?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of my posts in which I've told people they must do something in some certain order or that if they wanted to be men they should fly freight. Just because Ppragman and I have made better decisions than you when it comes to flying don't hate, man. Its very unbecoming.