Colgan and Q400

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

YOU SEE I TOLD YOU GUYS, I CAN'T WAIT TO FLY THIS AIRCRAFT.


250 PILOTS
HERE COME THE UPGRADES,
I TOLD EVERYONE THIS WAS HAPPENING
I KNEW IT
AWESOME, :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2:
I WONDER OF THE PAY WILL BE THE SAME AS THE SAAB
I HOPE ITS MORE
:nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2:

You sound pretty happy. Not to crap on your parade per say,

Pinnacle holdings got this money (to buy the Q400s) in the first place from the bankruptcy note they sold, which they gained from the new ASA from Northwest.

They are using money made off the backs of Pinnacle Airlines pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, etc. and using that money to grow another airline at the expense of all PNCL employees.

ESPECIALLY the Pinnacle pilots who are in contract negotiations.


It seems so fitting of PT to buy a non-union carrier.


Whipsaw is the name of the game, and PT in Nonconnah Blvd is bringing it on!

 

[Rocketman99]

I'm kinda upset I missed that conf call. No emails about it and I didn't happen to log in to crewtrac yesterday to see the crew message. Grr...

 

[dingo222]

you didnt miss much on the conference call. Most of the info is still undecided, bases, pay, outstation or hubs, how they are going to staff it etc.

No personal slam to you cherokee, but you make it sound like colgan and its pilots were broke when we were bought. I'm not going to start some slam fest like they do over on the "other" site, but there is more to it that just pcl pilots money for these planes. It also involved our sweat equity. Without our work, pcl holdings wouldn't have a reason to buy new planes that will add more money to the corp as a whole. When either pilot group makes money, it will go to benefit both. OUr company was bought with a ton of equity. We were turning a profit the moment the papers were signed. Is it right? I think you guys should get paid. I think you will get paid. I think that's your battle with ALPA and PCL mgmt. THat's a big reason we are scutinizing ALPA national as we speak. They want our money, but we dont want to come in after hosing your pilot group. What happens when a year from now, pcl pilots get rj-700's or whatever? WIll it be from our money, or just your money? It's all of our money now. PCL mgmt just bought a 100 grand house for 10 grand. It may not be cash, but we are also bringing a lot into the corp, which I hope gets us all ahead in the future.

 

[Rocketman99]

You know, thinking about that ALPA thing. I'm 100% for us having a union on property, but I don't think ALPA or those other knuckleheads IBT are worth the money either. Looking at the state of the industry, ALPA hasn't done a damn thing for the mainline guys who have lost all their pay, bennies, and retirements. What exactly are they gonna do for us nobodies? Then again, something is bettet than nothing at all. Though I wonder how tough it would be to get an independent Colgan Pilots' Associtation set up.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

To clarify right off the bat, I'm not at Pinnacle.

No personal slam to you cherokee, but you make it sound like colgan and its pilots were broke when we were bought. I'm not going to start some slam fest like they do over on the "other" site, but there is more to it that just pcl pilots money for these planes. It also involved our sweat equity. Without our work, pcl holdings wouldn't have a reason to buy new planes that will add more money to the corp as a whole.

Put it this way: Without Pinnacle Holdings, Colgan Air and their owners would never have been able to afford 15 Q400s, for around 250-280 million dollars. The reason these planes could be bought was because of Pinnacle Holdings and their cash.

When either pilot group makes money, it will go to benefit both. OUr company was bought with a ton of equity. We were turning a profit the moment the papers were signed. Is it right? I think you guys should get paid. I think you will get paid. I think that's your battle with ALPA and PCL mgmt. THat's a big reason we are scutinizing ALPA national as we speak. They want our money, but we dont want to come in after hosing your pilot group.

Wouldn't you agree it would be advantageous to merge the seniority lists (kill the chance of whipsaw) or at least get ALPA on your property?

What happens when a year from now, pcl pilots get rj-700's or whatever?

It is PT you are talking about, and knowing him, he will probably dangle the 70-76 seaters in front of Colgan while pressuring Pinnacle pilots to sign a crappy/substandard contract.

WIll it be from our money, or just your money? It's all of our money now.

Separate entity will still report their own findings, combined under Pinnacle Holdings. After looking at the SEC reports of Pinnacle Holdings, you will see just who made what money.

PCL mgmt just bought a 100 grand house for 10 grand. It may not be cash, but we are also bringing a lot into the corp, which I hope gets us all ahead in the future.

But right off the bat, you're getting planes that would never have been possible had Colgan stayed on their own.

Colgan family (the mangement) are rich, but they aren't "Buy 15 Q400s" rich.

That was the work of Pinnalce holdings, from the bankruptcy note sold to gain $283 million, off the backs of Pinnacle Airlines employees.

I am extremely sympathetic to Pinnacle pilots, and can't imagine how it feels to be told that a new contract cannot be "afforded" while your holding company buys out 15 airplanes to a non-union airline.

 

[Cruise]

.......I am extremely sympathetic to Pinnacle pilots, and can't imagine how it feels to be told that a new contract cannot be "afforded" while your holding company buys out 15 airplanes to a non-union airline.

Look, we didn't ask to be bought! We, had no clue it was happening. We cannot just bring a union in overnight. This whole Q400 thing didn't just happen instantly; I'm sure some MBA at the holding corp has been eyeing this for a long time.

Give us at least a little credit here. We are not interest in screwing the PCL pilot group. Union talks are in motion.....but it's gonna take some time. Unfortunately, we didn't have the benefit of planning this out for months before we got purchased. So, don't paint the Colgan pilot group out to be the bad guys......it was out of our control, but we are working on getting that fixed!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Look, we didn't ask to be bought! We, had no clue it was happening. We cannot just bring a union in overnight. This whole Q400 thing didn't just happen instantly; I'm sure some MBA at the holding corp has been eyeing this for a long time.

Give us at least a little credit here. We are not interest in screwing the PCL pilot group. Union talks are in motion.....but it's gonna take some time. Unfortunately, we didn't have the benefit of planning this out for months before we got purchased. So, don't paint the Colgan pilot group out to be the bad guys......it was out of our control, but we are working on getting that fixed!

No, no, I'm not blaming Colgan pilots!


Of course not, dude.

It's PT and his cronies at Nonconnah Blvd that are the problem!

 

[dingo222]

To clarify right off the bat, I'm not at Pinnacle.



Put it this way: Without Pinnacle Holdings, Colgan Air and their owners would never have been able to afford 15 Q400s, for around 250-280 million dollars. The reason these planes could be bought was because of Pinnacle Holdings and their cash.

DO you think any airline would drop 250-280 mil and not expect to see a return? 250 mil wasn't taken, it was invested. Every time that plane flies, pcl gets the full rate for every seat from cal + fuel -crew-mx.



Wouldn't you agree it would be advantageous to merge the seniority lists (kill the chance of whipsaw) or at least get ALPA on your property?

Since you don't work at PCL, you don't know what's happening behind the scenes. IT's already in progress and Capt Prater is being very aggresive with this to set a precedent on his watch.




It is PT you are talking about, and knowing him, he will probably dangle the 70-76 seaters in front of Colgan while pressuring Pinnacle pilots to sign a crappy/substandard contract.

MAybe he will, maybe alpa will take him head on real soon. This was the biggest issue brought up to ALPA by colgan pilots, and they are working it.




Separate entity will still report their own findings, combined under Pinnacle Holdings. After looking at the SEC reports of Pinnacle Holdings, you will see just who made what money.

COlgan estimated profits for 2006 are 190 mil. I'm sure not all of that will be re-invested back into colgan. PT is an opportunist, he will put the money where he thinks it will make him more. IF it's in the Q's, colgan will get it. If it's in 70 seat rj's for united or usair, PCL pilots will see it.




But right off the bat, you're getting planes that would never have been possible had Colgan stayed on their own.

Colgan family (the mangement) are rich, but they aren't "Buy 15 Q400s" rich.

Nope, that's not being disputed. What pcl did, was but a working,profitable airline on the cheap. Our new MX hangar cost more than the cash settlement alone, not to mention the usair routes that we own, the gates at IAD and LGA that we own, and the planes that we own.

That was the work of Pinnalce holdings, from the bankruptcy note sold to gain $283 million, off the backs of Pinnacle Airlines employees.

IT was, not desputing that also. But it's not a total loss of 283 mil, that money is coming back in the form of assets, and cash flow.

I am extremely sympathetic to Pinnacle pilots, and can't imagine how it feels to be told that a new contract cannot be "afforded" while your holding company buys out 15 airplanes to a non-union airline.

I suck at this quote thing!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

DO you think any airline would drop 250-280 mil and not expect to see a return? 250 mil wasn't taken, it was invested. Every time that plane flies, pcl gets the full rate for every seat from cal + fuel -crew-mx.

Lining up management pockets. Pinnacle pilots, making 20.73/hr and 24.39/hr don't see a dime until they get a new contract (besides a small profit share, if it even exists).

Since you don't work at PCL, you don't know what's happening behind the scenes. IT's already in progress and Capt Prater is being very aggresive with this to set a precedent on his watch.

I've talked to a few PNCL pilots, and not even they know what's going on behind the scenes. There is a union rep on flightinfo forums, PCL_128, and he's saying to standby and that more info will come out later this week.

IT was, not desputing that also. But it's not a total loss of 283 mil, that money is coming back in the form of assets, and cash flow.

Still DOESN'T change the fact that Pinnacle pilots are being told their new contract proposal can't be afforded, while PT goes out and buys 15 planes.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

AGAIN, I'm NOT blaming Colgan pilots for anything.

None of this is your fault.


It's all PT and his cronies at Nonconnah Blvd that are up to no good.


It's posts like these that irk me:

YOU SEE I TOLD YOU GUYS, I CAN'T WAIT TO FLY THIS AIRCRAFT.


250 PILOTS
HERE COME THE UPGRADES,
I TOLD EVERYONE THIS WAS HAPPENING
I KNEW IT
AWESOME, :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2:
I WONDER OF THE PAY WILL BE THE SAME AS THE SAAB
I HOPE ITS MORE
:nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2:

 

[dingo222]

IF colgan was never bought, pcl pilot would still be fighting for a new contract. That was there before the buyout, and its there now. The FA's and dispatchers at pcl are about to reach a new ta with mgmt. I'd suspect the pilots are next. THis has been going on for 3 years. Pcl pilot make 20 bucks an hour for 3 years. PT has told them that they can't get paid more for 3 years. It's not like they were super close to a deal and then all of the sudden colgan was bought and pt backed out. THat has nothing to do with colgan pilots. THats a 3 yr old fight between pcl pilots and mgmt. It has everything to do with us now, especially that we are getting q's, and alpa is all over it. I'm not going to talk union stuff on a public forum, becuase colgan pilots have been smashed and fired over it in the past. Understand that it is in the works on all sides, and all sides are talking. Feel free to pm me and I'd be happy to explain more.

And you believe what is written on flightinfo????? Kidding man, I go over there when i need a good laugh at those goons.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

IF colgan was never bought, pcl pilot would still be fighting for a new contract. That was there before the buyout, and its there now. The FA's and dispatchers at pcl are about to reach a new ta with mgmt. I'd suspect the pilots are next. THis has been going on for 3 years. Pcl pilot make 20 bucks an hour for 3 years. PT has told them that they can't get paid more for 3 years. It's not like they were super close to a deal and then all of the sudden colgan was bought and pt backed out. THat has nothing to do with colgan pilots. THats a 3 yr old fight between pcl pilots and mgmt. It has everything to do with us now, especially that we are getting q's, and alpa is all over it. I'm not going to talk union stuff on a public forum, becuase colgan pilots have been smashed and fired over it in the past. Understand that it is in the works on all sides, and all sides are talking. Feel free to pm me and I'd be happy to explain more.

Yes, but if Colgan wasn't bought, then the Q400s wouldn't have been bought. Which means the $283 million gained from teh bankruptcy note would just be sitting in a bank with Pinnalce Airlines. Not to mention, if Colgan wasn't bought, that's ANOTHER 20 million sitting in the bank.

Total? $303 million just sitting. It be sort of hard telling the NMB that you can't afford to award a contract that costs $50 million more over its four years duration, when you have $303 million sitting in the bank.

PT knew that, as did all his cronies at Nonconnah Blvd.

So, buying Colgan and the Q400s seemed like a "logical" move from management's standpoint. Now they will be back to telling PNCL pilots that management doesn't have any money to give the pilots a $50 million expensive-than-current contract.

And you believe what is written on flightinfo????? Kidding man, I go over there when i need a good laugh at those goons.

All fun and jokes, but there are a few good PNCL guys there I talk to via PM only.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

All fun and jokes, but there are a few good PNCL guys there I talk to via PM only.

Have you told them about THIS website??

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Have you told them about THIS website??

No, I guess I should?

The one guy is a union rep, and he is great to talk to! Very friendly, and always willing to help!

 

[Cruise]

AGAIN, I'm NOT blaming Colgan pilots for anything.

None of this is your fault.


It's all PT and his cronies at Nonconnah Blvd that are up to no good.


It's posts like these that irk me:

YOU SEE I TOLD YOU GUYS, I CAN'T WAIT TO FLY THIS AIRCRAFT.


250 PILOTS
HERE COME THE UPGRADES,
I TOLD EVERYONE THIS WAS HAPPENING
I KNEW IT
AWESOME, :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2:
I WONDER OF THE PAY WILL BE THE SAME AS THE SAAB
I HOPE ITS MORE
:nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2: :nana2:

I'm fairly certain that many hear have the same opinion as you regarding the obnoxious post above. :insane: :banghead:

 

[kellwolf]

Okay, I just got back from a more or less 6 day trip. I loved the headline in MEM "Pinnacle Spreading Its Wings." Basically, if it had said "Colgan Speading Its Wings" no one in MEM would have known what the hell the article was about and would have skipped it.

And yeah, Pinnacle Corp is buying the planes. Here's the deal. I read something about "sweat equity" and how there would have been no reason to buy the Q400s without it. How about this. The money wouldn't BE there without the "sweat equity" from the PCL pilots that busted their assed to cover for management screw ups, customer service failures and scheduling issues. Now, we're getting stabbed in the back. "Good job, guys. We're gonna take this cash your hard work got us and use to to help out our new non-union carrier." I saw this coming, but it doesn't piss me off any less, that's for sure.

The kicker of the deal is, we could have a pilot contract signed last week. We're $50 million apart over the LIFE of the pilot contract. Essentially, that's $10 million a YEAR. So, if the company had just taken $50 mil of that settlement, said "Here ya go, we'll give you EXACTLY what you're asking for," kept the other $230 million, we'd probably be pretty happy. Instead, we're getting the hand wringing "we can't afford that!" while they buy another airline, then WEEKS later, buy new airplanes for the same airline.

Now, last I heard pay rates had yet to be determined for the Q400. You guys are getting a nice new airplane, but you're more than likely gonna have to sell your souls for it. This is what they offered us to fly the 76 seaters: NO, ZERO, ZILCH pay raise for FOs over what we're currently making on the -200, and an insultingly small pay increase for the CAs. If you're an FO on the Saab at Colgan, odds are you'll be making as much as the Q400 FOs when all is said and done. Your new masters don't like to share the wealth with those that actually do the work. They prefer to keep it to themselves.

I'm not downing or even blaming the Colgan pilots. You didn't ask to be put in this situation. What I am asking is that those of you so exhuberant over this (ColganFO) THINK about what it means to your new step-brothers. What if the tables were turned, eh?

Here's the way I see the scope clause. Back in the dark ages of our negotiations (like last August), the company was lobbying HARD for a scope relief that would allow them to fly for other carriers with a non-union carrier. I say relief b/c our existing contract has a VERY well written scope clause with a successorship clause put in just in case the holding company trick was tried (which it was). Due to the successor clause, any flying done by an airline in possession of Pinnacle Inc (ie Pinnacle Corp) must be done by pilots on the Pinnacle Inc seniority list. This is what they wanted relief from.....until they bought Colgan and decided to do it anyway. So, why do they not need relief from it all of a sudden? Answer: they do, legally. The best solution is to get the Colgan pilots on our seniority list with fences up to protect both groups from harmful ship-jumping. It satisfies the scope clause, all the pilots at both airlines are protected from management end arounds and we're one big family. For the record, VERY few pilots that I've talked to about this are wanting a staple. Most are wanting a DOH integration with fences to protect those currently at both carriers and the upgrade times.