Heck, most SJSers wouldn't want to do "their time" as a Second Officer likely, much less ever be a professional FE (PFE). "Why do I have to fly sideways? What do mean guys used to do that at one time? I trained as a PILOT!!!!"
CNN Video: Safety Rule Could Create Pilot Shortage
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Heck, most SJSers wouldn't want to do "their time" as a Second Officer likely, much less ever be a professional FE (PFE). "Why do I have to fly sideways? What do mean guys used to do that at one time? I trained as a PILOT!!!!"
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Seriously, have any of you all arguing ever flown left seat? I fly with people from all sorts of backgrounds - new hires, senior FOs, guys with lots of time, guys with only a couple hundred hours (well not anymore, they stopped hiring at that level this year) guys with nothing but SEL Cessna time and guys with 3,000 hours of RJ or Airbus time and honestly I've never seen any correlation between hours/experience and how good of a pilot they are. In fact a lot of the better folks were hired at low time, and lot of the guys hired at higher time were just average (exception was my new hire sim partner, he was a really sharp guy, he's moved on and has been very successful and rightfully so, who flew freight before this, I was really lucky to have him as a sim partner). I've flown with people a few months off OE with low time that should be in the left seat instead of me they were that good (not that I am good - I am definitely "average" - but they were very sharp and impressive). Oh and that military advantage...have yet to seen that - no better than your average line guy. Now the ex-enlisted ground guys who used their VA Benefits? Best pilots I've ever flown with bar none. If I owned a business I would only hire ex-enlisted solders, every one of them I have interacted with have been professional, courteous, sharp, and really pissed me off I never went into the service like my father.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I'd love to fly sideways as long as a path to the FO seat is there.
Obligatory reference to the T-Tailed Tigress, and The Only Way To Fly(tm).
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Officers and Warrant Officers suck then?
What do you think, Major?
Officers and Warrant Officers suck then?
Well, all us enlisted guys already knew that... Hence why we're awesome!
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
"Flown left seat" in what? In a part 121 operation? Is that supposed to be the only way that you can have the wisdom to be able to have an opinion on this? I'd be happy to list my qualifications, but I don't believe that is important to the conversation.
The fact of the matter is this: airmanship and judgment can only be gained through experience. They cannot be taught in a classroom.
Not sure what your yardstick of performance is, nor what environment your experience and observations of performance have been in, which leads you to make such a statement as above, but in my experience (nearly all military high-performance jet time, but also non-professional civilian flying) there is a correlation between experience and airmanship/judgment/skill.
Obviously we know that it's not a guarantee. There's not a 100% direct lock-up between experience and skill/airmanship/judgment. We all know outliers, and can identify high time idiots and low time aces. Maybe we can even name dozens or more of each type. None the less, they're outliers and not the main part of the bell curve.
There's a reason that flight hours has been the cornerstone yardstick of aviator experience ever since the beginning of manned flight. If there were a better measure, then one of the millions of smart guys who fly airplanes would have come up with it and it would have been adopted as the standard.
Ok lets answer this question. Is there a correlation between experience and financial progression in the airline career path? Lets face it. If you you've racked up 3000+ plus hours twin turboprops from with a mom and pops 135 shop for the last five years before getting on at an airline, your paychecks will still be less then the kid who went from zero to hero in 90 days and got hired a year before you.
block30
Well-Known Member
I know for sure I brought more to the table in the 121 world having greater than 250/wet Commercial. The 250/wet comm has been seen in the past and could be seen again as the well dries up (maybe dries up). The new law requires a greater depth of experience from which to draw. How is that bad? Weed out the bad personalities through interviews and the probationary year, or whatever other methods there are.
My only "captain" time was part 135 single pilot, but as long as a hypothetical FO would be in my hypothetical right seat, I would like them to have real world experience from which to draw and have been matured by. Shoot, if I am flying for pleasure part 91, having an experienced co pilot can be wonderful, especially if IFR in the weather. Been there in real life.
My only "captain" time was part 135 single pilot, but as long as a hypothetical FO would be in my hypothetical right seat, I would like them to have real world experience from which to draw and have been matured by. Shoot, if I am flying for pleasure part 91, having an experienced co pilot can be wonderful, especially if IFR in the weather. Been there in real life.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
That's just it, I have been doing it for years now and flown with all sorts of people. Almost no correlation to experience and how good of a pilot they were. This is of course with a minimum baseline, I would suspect someone with 250 hours like you said would be excellent at flying the plane but not know as much when it comes to weather, situational awareness (what does ATC want you to do) etc. In fact I would bet they would be really safe, as they would go 50 miles around a TS if ATC would let them!
I'm not saying the law is bad, just that it is unnecessary IMO. I think it went too far. Remember the reason it came out? The Colgan crash? The CA had 3500 hours and FO 2000 hours IIRC and had spent years in the 121 environment. The Comair crash prior? Also years and years of experience up until that point, IIRC they were a senior crew.
Hours and experience doesn't make a pilot safe - the pilot does.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
A good friend of mine went to ATP, hired at Xjet at low time 500-600 hours, upgraded in 18 months, and less than a year later was a Captain for a fortune 500 company flying their Falcons across the world. Ironically in his class, there was one other guy hired. Had triple the time, was twice as old, and as small a world as it was, was my former boss, who had spent years working charter.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
So what's your theory on why insurance companies, who pretty obviously have a vested interest in knowing who statistically make the best pilots, inevitably resort to hours and experience as their metric?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
It's the only metric available.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Is it? They're in a position to ask for any information they like, and in order to get a lower rate, any employer will almost certainly comply. What metric would you prefer to see applied?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I'm not in insurance and don't have an answer to your question, just that in my experience the whole TT is way overdone especially on sites such as this.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
My experience has been that it's about appropriately "done" on sites such as this. Who's right? I dunno, what's your TT?
But seriously. Good training is just as important as experience. I don't deny that for a second. But both are important. You simply cannot "teach" the sort of parallel processing that comes with experience.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I haven't updated in a long time but I would guess around 6500. I was hired at 1915 TT of which 1496.1 was dual given w/ the ATP time requirements. I don't remember a lot but for some reason those #'s are burned into my head.My experience has been that it's about appropriately "done" on sites such as this. Who's right? I dunno, what's your TT?
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
HAHA! I have you by a few hundred! I'm right, you're wrong! I'm a Better Pilot than you!
Also a better human being.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
HAHA! I have you by a few hundred! I'm right, you're wrong! I'm a Better Pilot than you!
Also a better human being.
Well now I'm going to have to update!! Have to wait for the weekend as I refuse to do that over my days off
Guy I used to fly with wore a tie that said 10,000 safe flight hours. He was kinda corny but I liked him. Anyway another guy asked him once, what about the other hours? Were they unsafe? Had a good laugh.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I find that I like most people I fly with, in the end. Even the corny ones. Hell, probably even JCers (although they're obviously wrong about everything, ever).