CMEL or CSEL first
- Thread starter PGT
- Start date
Can you get hold of a complex single? If so, how much? If you do the CSEL first you need (at a minimum) to do the landings and related emergency procedures (emergency gear extension) in the complex on your checkride. A lot of the DPEs round here strongly prefer you do the entire ride in the complex. You need a minimum of 10hrs Dual in the complex to be eligible, so you might as well learn the maneuvers in that time.
The decision (in my opinion) comes down to what you plan on doing next and your cost of a complex single. If you are planning on doing your MEI straight away, you may find it beneficial so become really comfortable in the twin by doing the CMEL first. If you have no plans of using the CMEL any time soon, then you should get the CSEL and spend the money on your CFI and CFII. That being said, if you don't have easy access to a complex SEL or it is crazy expensive, get the multi first as that will satisfy the complex requirements, and the single add-on can be in a 152/172.
The decision (in my opinion) comes down to what you plan on doing next and your cost of a complex single. If you are planning on doing your MEI straight away, you may find it beneficial so become really comfortable in the twin by doing the CMEL first. If you have no plans of using the CMEL any time soon, then you should get the CSEL and spend the money on your CFI and CFII. That being said, if you don't have easy access to a complex SEL or it is crazy expensive, get the multi first as that will satisfy the complex requirements, and the single add-on can be in a 152/172.
I can run the numbers on those planes if you can give me your current times and let me know where you lie in the requirements for the commercial pilot certificate.
To do a multi-initial, you need to do quite a bit of flying in the twin to meet the requirements. Off the top of my head, I don't remember what, but I can pull up my old programs I used when I Chief CFI'd a while back. They'll spit out the cost difference.
Just drop me a PM. I've got a pretty easy day today.
-mini
PS. What's the CFI/MEI per hour?
To do a multi-initial, you need to do quite a bit of flying in the twin to meet the requirements. Off the top of my head, I don't remember what, but I can pull up my old programs I used when I Chief CFI'd a while back. They'll spit out the cost difference.
Just drop me a PM. I've got a pretty easy day today.
-mini
PS. What's the CFI/MEI per hour?
MikeOH58
Well-Known Member
Personally, I would get the Commercial Single, and hold off on the multi until its needed. Yea, you may get a job as an MEI right off the bat, but I wouldn't count on it...Furthermore, unless you have something lined up, you may not be getting hired in the right seat of any multi engine airplane for sometime.
The advantages of Commercial single are CFI, skyrides, ferry flights, banner tow, skydive, traffic etc.....
More options at this stage in your career with the single IMO.
The advantages of Commercial single are CFI, skyrides, ferry flights, banner tow, skydive, traffic etc.....
More options at this stage in your career with the single IMO.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
I might have miss read it but I get the impression that you don't quiet get the whole picture. Maybe you do but I might be way off.
What I mean is.
61.129 (B)
(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
You must do all of these things in a twin, which means there will be these expenses of doing x-c in a twin.
Just giving you heads up in case there was a miss understanding.
So even though you don't need to do time building, you will still have to meet these requirements and these expenses.
What I mean is.
61.129 (B)
(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
You must do all of these things in a twin, which means there will be these expenses of doing x-c in a twin.
Just giving you heads up in case there was a miss understanding.
So even though you don't need to do time building, you will still have to meet these requirements and these expenses.
LatitudeDancer
Well-Known Member
I did the ME first and the SE as an add-on. I only had access to a non-RG single at the time. The only drawback for me is now that I'm working on my CFI initial I'm having to learn how to do it all in a very different airplane (DA40 vs. R182). But not too big an issue.
Some of those things can be done at the same time. Things like his 300nm "simulated solo" xc can be done at night. Then he can spend 5 hours in the traffic pattern doing landings and takeoffs at a towered airport and knock out those requirements. (10 hours of "simulated solo" time)
Some of the instrument training can be done in a cheap 172 (only 5 hours needs to be done in a twin).
The complex takes care of itself since it's a Duchess.
The 50 hours of PIC XC do not have to be in a multi-engine airplane. Just an airplane. He meets that requirement.
He'll have to do the dual VFR cross countries in the Duchess, but he'd have to do that in a 172 also..it's just a little more pricey doing it in the Duchess.
It's about $800 more expensive for him to do the multi first then add the single. Unless he can do the single add-on in fewer than 5 hours (possible), then it's even less more expensive (if that makes sense).
If he has a good instructor (and a "senior" instructor as they're called sometimes) and does his commercial multi and single in the right seat, I'd bet he could knock out the CFII & MEI in the same checkride in the duchess (after getting his 15 PIC Multi...he could work on both the CFI-IA and CFI-AME during the 15 hours of PIC time) then doing the CFI in a straight legged 172 with no problems. Figure 18-20 hours for the MEI and CFII in the Duchess then figure 5 hours for the CFI in the 172. That should take care of it all.
20*205 (Multi including checkride) 4100
15*50 (CFI) 750
5*90 (172) 450
3*50 (CFI) 150
~$6,000 for all three CFI ratings (plus examiner fees). Not bad.
-mini
Assuming that you don't have a multi-private, Do the single first. It makes the oral a little easier IMO. This way you can focus on commercial related material for the SEL ride and then if you go back soon to the same DPE for the CMEL he will just focus on multi related material... at least thats how mine and some of my friends rides went. It made preparing a little easier, I've seen much longer orals for those who choose the CMEL as the initial and the same goes for the CFI vs MEI initial..... CFI is a little easier.
My god.... I've heard stories like that for the CFI-initial but not CSEL... I think my CSEL was an hour and my CFI maybe 2 hours but I've seen them as long as 4.... I always feel bad for thoes guys
Correct on the 1st part. Thanks for clarifying that for Douglas.
And he could also do the CFII/MEI, but it's a hard ride to do. If I remember right, ATP does it in a single, they call it the "SEX" ride.
It was the worst. All scenario based stuff. "Can you do ___ with a Commercial certificate? How about ____? Okay, what about ___?"
Just a few rote memorization stuff, like limitations and speeds on the gutless.
The first day the wx was gorgeous, the 2nd day I wanted to re-schedule because of low clouds, he said no. Ended up doing a chandelle right into a cloud. That was fun filling out a NASA report after a checkride.
Oh well, a pass is a pass I guess.LOL I love it.
-mini
LatitudeDancer
Well-Known Member
Ha, my CMEL initial oral was a good 15 minutes...consisted of discussing what boats were going to be displayed later in the day for the boat show. The only aviation related question was "at what altitude are we raising the gear today?" (he was looking for around 200' I think). My oral for the CSEL add-on (different guy, different airport and FSDO) was about 15 minutes and consisted of him trying to get out of me "zero fuel weight/CG." He flew the plane for 1/2 the flight...never been in a DA40 before apparently.