"Cleared in the class Bravo" Or am I?...

JustinS said:
Taking off VFR out of some Class Bs, I'll switch to departure they'll say "Radar contact, cleared into the Class Bravo." I'm thinking to myself, well I sure hope I am I've been in the Class B since they cleared me for takeoff...
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Not always, I've had a situation where we got to somewhere in the lineup and found out that we were supposed to contact CD prior to taxi for a bravo clearance. Had we taken off without we would have been in violation.
 
Roger Roger said:
Not always, I've had a situation where we got to somewhere in the lineup and found out that we were supposed to contact CD prior to taxi for a bravo clearance. Had we taken off without we would have been in violation.
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Ah, well we had contacted clearance delivery. I always contact CD even VFR out of the B.
 
genot said:
I once heard a knucklehead issue the same clearance on initial contact to a departure and then argue with himself out loud over if that specific instruction was necessary or if he needed to issue a clearance to exit the Bravo. I face palmed so hard I nearly broke my wrist and gave myself a concussion.
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Of course if you don't get clearance to exit the Bravo you're condemned to circle within the confines of it until the heat-death of the solar system, or fuel exhaustion, whichever comes first.
 
By the Doremire LOI, a VFR flight in Class B who heard "cleared into bravo" can deviate as necessary even when assigned a heading and altitude because to a VFR aircraft that is not a clearance? That is how I read it anyway.

For the record, I always confirm when I am flying, if the controller does not specifically say the words, but I wouldn't mind seeing it in writing somewhere in an official publication, and not just an obscure LOI that "cleared into bravo" is any different then being assigned a heading or altitude that takes you into class B. 7-9-2 of the .65 is vague. All it says is that a VFR pilot is required to inform the controller if an assigned heading or altitude would cause them to violate any part of the CFRs. Obviously not every pilot has read Doremire, and any reasonable person could interpret a heading or altitude change as a clearance into bravo.
 
greg1016 said:
By the Doremire LOI, a VFR flight in Class B who heard "cleared into bravo" can deviate as necessary even when assigned a heading and altitude because to a VFR aircraft that is not a clearance? That is how I read it anyway.
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Not sure how you read that. The Doremire letter says the opposite. You are not cleared into the Class B unless you hear the words. A heading and altitude instruction given when you are outside the Class B is not a substitute for a clearance to come in.

So very simple. Hear the magic words, you are in. Don't hear them? Confirm with a simple query or guess at your peril.

I am always amazed at the number of people who seem to be so resistant to a simple communication.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Not sure how you read that. The Doremire letter says the opposite. You are not cleared into the Class B unless you hear the words. A heading and altitude instruction given when you are outside the Class B is not a substitute for a clearance to come in.

So very simple. Hear the magic words, you are in. Don't hear them? Confirm with a simple query or guess at your peril.

I am always amazed at the number of people who seem to be so resistant to a simple communication.
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It is not simple. Being assigned a heading or an altitude to maintain is a clearance, if complying with that clearance takes you into the bravo, then it follows that you have been cleared into the bravo. I am aware that that is not the interpretation in Doremire. However a reasonable person who has not read that decision could easily come to that conclusion, as it seems the OP has. It is the responsibility of ATC, having provided a clearance, to ensure that that clearance is safe. It seems to me that if a pilot was violated for a situation like this, that they would have solid ground for an appeal, and that the only instance where a pilot would be reported in this case is if a loss of separation occurred due to controller error and in an effort to cover their own ass, the controller turned the pilot in. It is akin to the ridiculous visual separation phraseology that has gotten so many controllers violated that a lot will not even use visual separation at all anymore.

As a controller I sure as hell would not issue a vector to an aircraft toward any sort of ATC assigned airspace and expect the pilot to turn to avoid the airspace without having first been released from the assigned heading. To be clear, 'advise you turn thirty degrees right for traffic' carries different connotations than 'fly heading zero niner zero vectors for traffic'
 
greg1016 said:
It is not simple. Being assigned a heading or an altitude to maintain is a clearance, if complying with that clearance takes you into the bravo, then it follows that you have been cleared into the bravo. I am aware that that is not the interpretation in Doremire. However a reasonable person who has not read that decision could easily come to that conclusion, as it seems the OP has. It is the responsibility of ATC, having provided a clearance, to ensure that that clearance is safe. It seems to me that if a pilot was violated for a situation like this, that they would have solid ground for an appeal, and that the only instance where a pilot would be reported in this case is if a loss of separation occurred due to controller error and in an effort to cover their own ass, the controller turned the pilot in. It is akin to the ridiculous visual separation phraseology that has gotten so many controllers violated that a lot will not even use visual separation at all anymore.

As a controller I sure as hell would not issue a vector to an aircraft toward any sort of ATC assigned airspace and expect the pilot to turn to avoid the airspace without having first been released from the assigned heading. To be clear, 'advise you turn thirty degrees right for traffic' carries different connotations than 'fly heading zero niner zero vectors for traffic'
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I agree with you 100%. I think the Doremire letter is dumb. But it says what it says... So I guess I'll just tell people to ask for the "magic words."
 
greg1016 said:
It is not simple.
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Just an observation: that was a heck of a lot of words to say that saying "confirm cleared into Class Bravo" if you don't hear them is not simple.

Personally I think what the Doremire letter is really saying is, "Don't assume a Class B clearance when VFR." They just didn't want to open the door to pilots making the assumption in all sorts of situations so you can write them up when the think they probably have been cleared but weren't.
 
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greg1016 said:
It is not simple. Being assigned a heading or an altitude to maintain is a clearance, if complying with that clearance takes you into the bravo, then it follows that you have been cleared into the bravo.
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Actually, it follows that your assigned heading would cause you to violate the portion of the CFR requiring you obtain a clearance to enter the bravo before doing so. Therefore, you're required to request an amended instruction from ATC.

As a VFR aircraft you wouldn't fly an assigned heading into a cloud would you? You would not assume that ATC assigning that heading was an implicit clearance to enter that cloud right?
 
Roger Roger said:
Not always, I've had a situation where we got to somewhere in the lineup and found out that we were supposed to contact CD prior to taxi for a bravo clearance. Had we taken off without we would have been in violation.
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I actually heard someone get scolded on the ground in IAD for taxiing around without a transponder on because "B extends down to the surface!"

I don't know if that conforms to the spirit of the rule...but the OP reminds me of the BS that filters around my company about how "you're akways cleared to land in ATL." Maybe unofficially...but I'm not putting why parts of my plane on that runway until I hear the words. It's not worth the risk.
 
FM_Weasel said:
Actually, it follows that your assigned heading would cause you to violate the portion of the CFR requiring you obtain a clearance to enter the bravo before doing so. Therefore, you're required to request an amended instruction from ATC.

As a VFR aircraft you wouldn't fly an assigned heading into a cloud would you? You would not assume that ATC assigning that heading was an implicit clearance to enter that cloud right?
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The difference being that ATC can't see clouds, they can see airspace, and penetrating a bravo line does not have the same safety implications as flying into a cloud. If I am given a heading that will take me into a cloud while VFR, I will inform the controller that I'll be unable to maintain VFR on present heading well before I actually penetrate a cloud. Likewise, if I don't hear the magic words I will verify with the controller. However, a reasonable pilot could assume that they are not necessary having been assigned a heading.

CFR 91.131(a)(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that [class B] area before operating an aircraft in that area.
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That is what the book says. It is the Doremire letter that says you must hear the magic words, the CFRs say you must have a clearance. An altitude assignment or a heading to maintain is a clearance.
 
It's not a bravo clearance.

Your takeoff clearance isn't an IFR clearance. Your special VFR clearance isn't landing clearance.
 
FM_Weasel said:
It's not a bravo clearance.

Your takeoff clearance isn't an IFR clearance. Your special VFR clearance isn't landing clearance.
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And there is very specific language and procedures spelled out for each of those in the regulations. What I have quoted above is exactly what the regulations say. I am not arguing that hearing the words is not required, nor am I saying I wouldn't solicit them if I hadn't heard them. However, if I am assigned a heading on a congested frequency by an approach controller, and I didn't hear the words and I am unable to solicit them, I am not going to run up to the bravo shelf and go into a hold, I am going to maintain my assigned heading as long as I deem it safe. After all, the VFR pilot is ultimately responsible for their own separation, even in class B, and I can't see what is behind me.
 
greg1016 said:
By the Doremire LOI, a VFR flight in Class B who heard "cleared into bravo" can deviate as necessary even when assigned a heading and altitude because to a VFR aircraft that is not a clearance? That is how I read it anyway.
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That is absolutely incorrect. If you're given a heading and altitude while in Bravo airspace, you're expected to follow those instructions unless weather conditions exist that prevent you from following them and if that's the case, you shall advise prior to deviating.
 
RobertB said:
That is absolutely incorrect. If you're given a heading and altitude while in Bravo airspace, you're expected to follow those instructions unless weather conditions exist that prevent you from following them and if that's the case, you shall advise prior to deviating.
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I agree, but the Doremire ruling basically says if a VFR aircraft is assigned a heading for traffic, it does not constitute a clearance.
 
here i'll write it out how the communications went down every day for a month in houston so you can understand the confusion

ground: Doing survey work?
Me: yep
Ground: ok squawk yada yada and on departure runway heading to 2,000 (in the bravo)

tower: Cessna 123 contact approach

Approach: climb to 3,000 (still in the bravo) and heading 090, where ya working today?
me: up to 3k and 090, working northwest of houston at 3,500
Approach: ok we might have some jets coming around that area when we switch runways, if so might need you to work somewhere else but I will let you know

Not once had I been asked why or what I was doing there other than the occasional "how much fuel do you have left" joke Id get.
 
JordanD said:
Took off out of HND with a discreet code and everything coordinated with Vegas, got curious as I was coming up to the bravo shelf and asked if I was cleared in... Got a big fat NOPE.
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okay but did they give you an altitude to climb to that was clearly in the bravo? If no then you aren't understanding what my original post was about.
 
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