"Cleared direct ABC"

C

ClearedToTakeoff

Well-Known Member
On an IFR flight plan, very busy airspace, ABC is the VORTAC which the approach starts at. All you have been cleared for is direct the VORTAC and not even told to expect the approach. You are approaching the VORTAC quickly and no clearance yet. It's very busy and you attempt to query ATC, but get stepped on or ignored each time. Now you are over the VORTAC with no other instructions, what does ATC want, what does the pilot do?

I proceeded on heading and lucky got clearance just after station passage so it didn't turn out that big, but a little to late for my comfort. So what's should happen?
 
400A said:
What was your original flight plan?
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Tower Enroute:

On depart RT 340 RV ABC. 2-3 minutes after departure you'll usually get the cleared direct ABC line. So I was cleared to the airport, but that's all I got. The clearance to the airport, those directions, altitude, freq, and squawk.

So with the clearance to the airport does that's not a clearance for the approach. I said to not start the approach because we may not have a clearance since someone else is already on the approach.
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
On an IFR flight plan, very busy airspace, ABC is the VORTAC which the approach starts at. All you have been cleared for is direct the VORTAC and not even told to expect the approach. You are approaching the VORTAC quickly and no clearance yet. It's very busy and you attempt to query ATC, but get stepped on or ignored each time. Now you are over the VORTAC with no other instructions, what does ATC want, what does the pilot do?

I proceeded on heading and lucky got clearance just after station passage so it didn't turn out that big, but a little to late for my comfort. So what's should happen?
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Lost coms?
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
Tower Enroute:

On depart RT 340 RV ABC. 2-3 minutes after departure you'll usually get the cleared direct ABC line. So I was cleared to the airport, but that's all I got. The clearance to the airport, those directions, altitude, freq, and squawk.

So with the clearance to the airport does that's not a clearance for the approach. I said to not start the approach because we may not have a clearance since someone else is already on the approach.
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Well, look at it like this, if you had lost coms they would expect you to fly the approach. Sure, there might be someone in front of you, but there could also be someone behind you.

What would you have done if you didnt get the clearance?
 
Busy is not= lost coms, so you cant just start the approach(including descent portion) on your own. Maybe the clearance is withheld because a departure is coming off and by starting the approach on your own you run face to face with the departure. You have to call up and ask, even if you get stepped on you call attention to the abscence of a clearance. Also on a busy day when pilots are expecting an instruction and it hasn't come, often they will ident and that will call attention to their aircraft without using the frequency.
 
In such case, I don't think you would be faulted for entering a hold... though I've never seen anyone actually do that.
 
If ABC is your clearance limit, the AIM says to begin a hold using standard turns in the event of overwhelming frequency congestion.
 
meritflyer said:
If ABC is your clearance limit, the AIM says to begin a hold using standard turns in the event of overwhelming frequency congestion.
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In my mind, (which is probably wrong) If im cleared to my destination in my original clearance, and then get cleared to ABC with no EFC time, im still cleared to the airport. I was always under the impression that if its a clearance limit, i have to be issued an EFC time.
 
cmill said:
In my mind, (which is probably wrong) If im cleared to my destination in my original clearance, and then get cleared to ABC with no EFC time, im still cleared to the airport. I was always under the impression that if its a clearance limit, i have to be issued an EFC time.
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P/CG says "the fix, point, or location to which an aircraft is cleared when issued an air traffic clearance." Nothing about an EFC time.
 
i understand what you're saying, its just that ive never been cleared to the FAF with the expectation of holding. I've never heard of any holding over the FAF, either.
 
cmill said:
i understand what you're saying, its just that ive never been cleared to the FAF with the expectation of holding. I've never heard of any holding over the FAF, either.
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Yeah, but the VOR he mentioned is an initial approach fix. you do hold there. :)
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
How long should you hold? Until you run out of fuel? :p
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thats actually a really good point. My willingness to hold is directly related to how much fuel i have. I dont really see the sense of entering a hold without an EFC time. Im not gonna sit and go in circles with no end in sight.
 
I've had this precise thing happen. I entered the hold and hit the ident. About halfway through the first turn, I got an approach clearance. Don't know about the legalities, but that worked for me.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I've had this precise thing happen. I entered the hold and hit the ident. About halfway through the first turn, I got an approach clearance. Don't know about the legalities, but that worked for me.
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This is probably right and as for how long you should hold it is probably until the ETA time on your flight plan? I would guess, anyway.
 
cmill said:
In my mind, (which is probably wrong) If im cleared to my destination in my original clearance, and then get cleared to ABC with no EFC time, im still cleared to the airport.
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My thoughts too.

If you were in cruise and got a "cleared direct XYZ" shortcut...would you hold when you got to XYZ? I certainly never did, and I never got additional clearance instructions. I bet everyone here has seen that scenario before.

In the OP's case you route has been modified to be direct ABC. ABC is not your clearance limit. The only difference is that this is the vor where you would start an approach. My opinion is if you cant speak with ATC you're in a lost coms situation, you hold per the lost-com regs (and you better had enough fuel to do that :p ) then shoot your approach. You're still cleared to the airport, your route was just modified to be direct ABC vortac first.
 
Clocks said:
My thoughts too.

If you were in cruise and got a "cleared direct XYZ" shortcut...would you hold when you got to XYZ? I certainly never did, and I never got additional clearance instructions. I bet everyone here has seen that scenario before.

In the OP's case you route has been modified to be direct ABC. ABC is not your clearance limit. The only difference is that this is the vor where you would start an approach. My opinion is if you cant speak with ATC you're in a lost coms situation, you hold per the lost-com regs (and you better had enough fuel to do that :p ) then shoot your approach. You're still cleared to the airport, your route was just modified to be direct ABC vortac first.
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I don't know that I can agree that in the original post the route was simply changed without making an assumption.

The way I read the whole thing is, the controller should give you the "shortcut" as "Cleared direct to ABC, then (further clearance to the clearance limit)" We all know of cases where that hasn't happened, but it doesn't preclude the fact that it should.

This is the, in my opinion, the tough line between the letter of the law, and the smooth flow of traffic. Obviously, we know what controllers usually mean. But which time are you wrong?

Besides, most of us need that hold to keep instrument currency :D
 
boondr said:
Throw 7600 in the box real quick that will get their attention:D
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Be realistic you guys, if you enter a hold, you will not be faulted whatsoever, I can just about guarantee if the controller is not expecting it, the second you start turning into a hold they will either clear you for the approach/on course or explain the situation.

Just because we're not talking to you, doesn't mean we're not watching you.:hiya:

Of course, once again, just because the controller is not talking doesn't mean he's not busy, he just may be co-ordinating an inbound emergency with another controller, the bottom line, if going into a hold prior to getting an approach clearance is going to put you fuel critical, then in my opinion you didn't take-off with enough fuel in the first place, and please don't tell me 2 minutes in a hold is going to make a difference.

If entering in a hold is going to make you run out of fuel or cause an emergency situation (being late is not one of them) and you absolutely cannot raise ATC, then ultimately you would then squawk 7700.

I cannot imagine such an event occuring, the controller WILL get to you, be patient and realize there is always a grand plan involved, and if the controller is task saturated he can only talk /recieve readbacks so fast, we prioritize, and if we don't get to you in time, it doesn't mean we forgot you, there are just more pressing issues at hand.

Be patient, be professional, and ATC will get you on the ground...

Don't forget the sooner we get planes off the frequency the sooner we can move on to the next thing, we don't want you hanging around for no reason ;)
 
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