Class E and G airspace

[rframe]

VFR in G with less than 3SM or VFR above 10k in E you'd need 5SM, but not if you're actually in G.

I'm mostly playing devils advocate here, because I think it's important to cover this stuff in a flight review (I always do), but the reality is it rarely matters to many pilots. How many can tell the difference between 3SM and 5SM flight visibility at 12,000'?

Good example I heard recently: "Remain clear of the Class E surface area" when on a Special VFR. That can bite you.

True, but the very act of requesting special VFR indicates that the pilot probably already understands E/G or they wouldn't have requested it in the first place.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

How many people really care, outside of a flight review or practical?

As funny as it sounds, IR pilots.

Flying pt 91 in small, slow piston single, or higher performance twin, departing from a non-towered airport.

It's all about knowing where controlled airspace begins, the performance of your airplane & where you're going to obtain that clearance before punching into IMC in controlled airspace.

 

[JFlighttt]

This is so strange... All you have to do is look at the chart legend...

Yes, and the legend says the magenta fade is class G to 700, then class E up to A; and it says the blue fade is class G to 1200, then E up to A.

Unfortunetly, he thought anything outside the magena fade circles was E because there was NO BLUE fade depicted even though it really is, if you look at a border chart like green bay, you see the blue fades as well as the pockets of G that go to 14,500, but those blue fades actually go out until the next blue fade which is on the other side of the country. So because there is no blue fade on the outside of the magenta circles, he never realized that it actually is all blue, aka G to 1200, thence E.

 

[rframe]

Unfortunetly, he thought anything outside the magena fade circles was E because there was NO BLUE fade depicted

Another approach. Ask him what airspace is at 2,500' AGL over Grand Coulee Dam and 4,000' AGL over Buffalo Lake.

 

[flyingbum]

Another approach. Ask him what airspace is at 2,500' AGL over Grand Coulee Dam and 4,000' AGL over Buffalo Lake.

View attachment 23690

Yup, that should be pretty basic knowledge. One way people might get it easier is to understand is that the charts are designed to indicate where Class E begins. Glass G is only really indirectly depicted by the floor of Class E. Once I understood that as a student things were a whole lot easier.

 

[Capt. Chaos]

There is airspace other than e and g?

I figure that if you operating anywhere near the area of picture 2, concerns about airspace have long since past.

 

[ASpilot2be]

I figure that if you operating anywhere near the area of picture 2, concerns about airspace have long since past.

Hahaha. Very true.

 

[A150K]

I'd like to take instructor 2 and kick him in the nads if that is what he has been teaching for 12 years. Good god..

 

[A150K]

I'll come to his defense on the E from 14.5 to A if you're doing your flight training in a busy, congested place like the NE. You really don't see a whole lot of those class E areas around there-probably due to the lack of mountains worth mentioning.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Yes, and the legend says the magenta fade is class G to 700, then class E up to A; and it says the blue fade is class G to 1200, then E up to A.

Unfortunetly, he thought anything outside the magena fade circles was E because there was NO BLUE fade depicted even though it really is

As I recall, once upon a time there was more blue fade. As airspace got generally busier the charting convention changed so that Class E began at 1200 agl unless indicated otherwise by, for example, the "reverse" blue fade in areas like this one west of Salida, CO.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=38.66706941525591,-106.21618652611748&chart=301&zoom=1

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

As I recall, once upon a time there was more blue fade. As airspace got generally busier the charting convention changed so that Class E began at 1200 agl unless indicated otherwise by, for example, the "reverse" blue fade in areas like this one west of Salida, CO.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=38.66706941525591,-106.21618652611748&chart=301&zoom=1

Interesting, look at the elevations located on the solid side of the "blue fade". You have some mountains pushing 14,300. On the hard side of the blue fade. G still goes up to 14,500 MSL here. I guess that's why they felt it was OK to but the magenta fade right up to it.

Actually, zooming out and looking at it again the shaded blue is just there to "protect" the airways. They also raise the G to 15,500 in the vicinity of Monarch Pass for VFR traffic.



This is what I figured out to help me understand and teach E & G airspace on the chart:

The purpose of "controlled" airspace is to provide separation between IFR & VFR traffic. VFR mins protect IFR traffic, since you cannot enter controlled airspace in conditions less than VFR with out a clearance.

Controlled airspace at the surface is easy to spot and usually there to protect multiple instrument approaches including a precision app. The shaded magenta only exists around airports and is also there to protect instrument approaches or the approach structure. As you get farther away from the airport, outside if the magenta, but inside the shaded blue you'll find airways. Outside if the shaded blue you will not find any airways.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

I'll come to his defense on the E from 14.5 to A if you're doing your flight training in a busy, congested place like the NE. You really don't see a whole lot of those class E areas around there-probably due to the lack of mountains worth mentioning.

I live in SoCal... The shaded blue doesn't exist on the TAC and only runs the boarders of the LA SEC. No excuse.

 

[Maxemo]

As I recall, once upon a time there was more blue fade. As airspace got generally busier the charting convention changed so that Class E began at 1200 agl unless indicated otherwise by, for example, the "reverse" blue fade in areas like this one west of Salida, CO.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=38.66706941525591,-106.21618652611748&chart=301&zoom=1

I'm kind of confused. Inside the solid blue in the "RANGE" area, the elevation is 13,900ft. Does that mean class G in that area is only 600ft AGL?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I'm kind of confused. Inside the solid blue in the "RANGE" area, the elevation is 13,900ft. Does that mean class G in that area is only 600ft AGL?

Class G in 13,900 in the "RANGE" area goes to 14,500 msl. The 139 is the MEF, not the floor of Class E. A specific Class E floor is shown by a complete number in a hatched area, like the 15,500 and the smaller 12,200 areas south and west of Poncha Springs.

 

[Maxemo]

Class G in 13,900 in the "RANGE" area goes to 14,500 msl. The 139 is the MEF, not the floor of Class E. A specific Class E floor is shown by a complete number in a hatched area, like the 15,500 and the smaller 12,200 areas south and west of Poncha Springs.

I understand that the MEF is not the floor of Class E.
Say I'm flying over the 139 MEF at 700ft AGL which is 14,600 MSL. Won't I be in class E?

and If I was flying at 500ft AGL, won't I be in class G?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I understand that the MEF is not the floor of Class E.
Say I'm flying over the 139 MEF at 700ft AGL which is 14,600 MSL. Won't I be in class E?

and If I was flying at 500ft AGL, won't I be in class G?

Sorry I misunderstood. I think we're still talking about two different things since the MEF is higher than the highest obstacle.

But that aside, the answer would still be No.

Take a look at Mount Yale northwest of KANK. The peak is at 14,196. If 14,500 was an absolute Class G maximum, you'd be in Class G at or below 304 AGL and in Class E above it. But the FAR definition of Class E specifically excludes the airspace up to 1500 AGL (except, of course, for the 700/1200 floors established by regulation). See FAR 71.71.

So, flying above Mount Yale, you'd be in Class G up to 15,696 msl.

 

[Maxemo]

Sorry I misunderstood. I think we're still talking about two different things since the MEF is higher than the highest obstacle.

But that aside, the answer would still be No.

Take a look at Mount Yale northwest of KANK. The peak is at 14,196. If 14,500 was an absolute Class G maximum, you'd be in Class G at or below 304 AGL and in Class E above it. But the FAR definition of Class E specifically excludes the airspace up to 1500 AGL (except, of course, for the 700/1200 floors established by regulation). See FAR 71.71.

So, flying above Mount Yale, you'd be in Class G up to 15,696 msl.

I'm sorry I don't think I'm getting this. Maybe because I have never flown in the mountains before

I thought over Mount Yale, I would be in G at or below 304 AGL. I don't understand why you added 1500 to the elevation of 14,196.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I'm sorry I don't think I'm getting this. Maybe because I have never flown in the mountains before

I thought over Mount Yale, I would be in G at or below 304 AGL. I don't understand why you added 1500 to the elevation of 14,196.

Because, to quote myself, the definition of what is Class E says so:

the FAR definition of Class E specifically excludes the airspace up to 1500 AGL (except, of course, for the 700/1200 floors established by regulation). See FAR 71.71.

The ground at Mt Yale is at 14,196. 1500 ft above the ground is...?

 

[z987k]

Even if the ground is say....20,320MSL then Class A starts at 21820, and the minimum flight level for that area is 230.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Even if the ground is say....20,320MSL then Class A starts at 21820, and the minimum flight level for that area is 230.

Yep. The same 1500 agl exclusion appears in the definition of Class A airspace in 71.33. It applies only to Alaska (which makes sense since that's the only state where there are peaks high enough for it to be a factor).

Interesting to contemplate areas where the airspace goes from G to A without passing though E along the way.