Class D with radar

flyboywbl

flyboywbl

3rd regional in 1 year
Our Class Delta airport just got a radar screen in the tower but they got in trouble when they told two airplanes where their respective traffic was (their o'clock and altitude). I guess since they are not doing squawks and radar contacts they can't verify that those are actually the planes they are talking to. They are trying to see if they can say "Traffic appears to be at..."

I went up to the tower and talked to the controllers. They said they can't give radar vectors. Is this because we don't have an approach/departure con?

we also can only still have one IFR inbound/outbound in the airspace at one time as well.

So what is the point of this radar screen in the tower? Is it just so the controllers can get a better idea of where to look with their binoculars?

Just curious
 
I bleieve they have only sequencing responsibility, not separation, and the radar is used as an SA tool for that. This is probably just a tip of the iceberg reason, as I'm sure it's far more in depth than that.....ie- certifications as a radar facility or controller certs; or lack thereof.
 
Yah the controller pulled out his "bible" and was trying to look it up. They had an FAA guy come up in the tower to "baptize" the new system with there blessing. IE they gave it the gold star FAA stamp of approval. What that thing is actually approved for, i have no idea.
 
My home airport is a Class D with a TRACON at the same location. Our controllers use the "n123, traffic at your 1 o'clock, 3 miles...etc" not "traffic appears to be" while working the tower. The Tower Cab has a bright-scope (sp?). Sometimes when things aren't busy or low staffing they run APP/DEP from the tower cab off of the bright-scope.

I am guessing the difference with us though is the Tower/TRACON combo.
 
Craig Field in Jacksonville, FL has a radar screen in their tower. They are a contract tower, though. I've had them give me a squawk of like 1201 a few times. For their own radar ID I guess. Don't remember about vectors though. They might have some kind of LOA with JAX Approach for the squawk code.
 
You have to be radar qualified to give the position of another aircraft (o'clock position etc..) or vectors. So you should only find this at up/down facilities (tower/tracon)

If your not qualified to work radar then you can only use it for suggested heading and orientation, for example "traffic ahead and to your right" or "appears."

As for the squawk code, most facilities have a code range for their own use, and use it mostly as a memory aid.
 
3-1-9. USE OF TOWER RADAR DISPLAYS​
a.​
​
​
​
​
Uncertified tower display workstations shall be
used only as an aid to assist controllers in visually
locating aircraft or in determining their spacial
relationship to known geographical points. Radar
services and traffic advisories are not to be provided
using uncertified tower display workstations.
General information may be given in an easy to
understand manner, such as “to your right” or “ahead
of you.”​

EXAMPLE-​
“Follow the aircraft ahead of you passing the river at the
stacks.” “King Air passing left to right.”​
REFERENCE​
​
​
​
​
FAAO
JO 7210.3, Para10-5-3, Functional Use of Certified Tower
Radar Displays.​

b.​
​
​
​
​
Local controllers may use certified tower radar
displays for the following purposes:​

1.​
​
​
​
​
To determine an aircraft's identification,
exact location, or spatial relationship to other aircraft.​

NOTE​
​
​
​
​
This
authorization does not alter visual separation
procedures. When employing visual separation, the
provisions of para 7-2-1, Visual Separation, apply unless
otherwise authorized by the Vice President of Terminal
Service.​

REFERENCE​
​
​
​
​
FAAO
JO 7110.65, Para 5-3-2, Primary Radar Identification
Methods.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-3-3, Beacon Identification Methods.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-3-4, Terminal Automation Systems
Identification Methods.​

2.​
​
​
​
​
To provide aircraft with radar traffic
advisories.​

3.​
​
​
​
​
To provide a direction or suggested headings
to VFR aircraft as a method for radar identification or
as an advisory aid to navigation.​

PHRASEOLOGY-​
(Identification), PROCEED (direction)-BOUND, (other
instructions or information as necessary),
or
(identification), SUGGESTED HEADING (degrees),
(other instructions as necessary).​
NOTE​
​
​
​
​
It
is important that the pilot be aware of the fact that the
directions or headings being provided are suggestions or
are advisory in nature. This is to keep the pilot from being
inadvertently misled into assuming that radar vectors (and
other associated radar services) are being provided when,
in fact, they are not.​

4.​
​
​
​
​
To provide information and instructions to
aircraft operating within the surface area for which
the tower has responsibility.​

EXAMPLE-​
“TURN BASE LEG NOW.”​
2/14/08 JO 7110.65S
General 3-1-5​
NOTE​
​
​
​
​
Unless
otherwise authorized, tower radar displays are
intended to be an aid to local controllers in meeting their
responsibilities to the aircraft operating on the runways or
within the surface area. They are not intended to provide
radar benefits to pilots except for those accrued through a
more efficient and effective local control position. In
addition, local controllers at nonapproach control towers
must devote the majority of their time to visually scanning
the runways and local area; an assurance of continued
positive radar identification could place distracting and
operationally inefficient requirements upon the local
controller. Therefore, since the requirements of
para5-3-1, Application, cannot be assured, the radar
functions prescribed above are not considered to be radar
services and pilots should not be advised of being in “radar
contact.”​

c.​
​
​
​
​
Additional functions may be performed
provided the procedures have been reviewed and
authorized by appropriate management levels.​

REFERENCE​
​
​
​
​
FAAO​

JO 7110.65, Para 5-5-4, Minima.





I know that is a lot, but essentially you can use the display to determine a/c ID, location, or relationship to other a/c, traffic advisories, suggested headings, or directions within the surface area. That is only if it is a certified radar display. Remember, most (not all I know, but most) class D airports so not have a TRACON, another facility is providing radar services. Some towers, even without a TRACON, have controllers that are radar certified, meaning things like the one in-one out rule does not necessarily apply there. By traffic advisories, you can say things like traffic is off your left, or ahead of you, or things like that. A/C ID can be determined if the a/c is tagged up on the screen. The radar display is a very nice thing for controllers and can make things much easier, and can make the airspace safer for pilots as well, because now the controllers know where you are, and can determine potential conflicts, whereas without the display, all we can say is something very general, since we don't know a whole lot other than the what the pilot says about position in relation to the airport
 
we also can only still have one IFR inbound/outbound in the airspace at one time as well.
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AFAIK KGFK is 1 ifr in/out as well because they are a VFR only tower, so if it is really IMC you have hold for release. if it is VFR they can keep the ifr departures/arrivals rolling no problems, but when the wx drops, ifr ops gets slow.

they have a radar screen in the tower but it is for SA i think, our TRACON is over at KRDR
 
BuickCFI said:
AFAIK KGFK is 1 ifr in/out as well because they are a VFR only tower, so if it is really IMC you have hold for release. if it is VFR they can keep the ifr departures/arrivals rolling no problems, but when the wx drops, ifr ops gets slow.

they have a radar screen in the tower but it is for SA i think, our TRACON is over at KRDR
Click to expand...

Yah ours is the same way. lots of "VFR climbs" keeps the traffic coming in and out. Every once in a while you will get an operator in here who does not use the VFR climb. It pisses me off to no other. I'll be right about to taxi down to the active but a jet also called for taxi. I will be told to give way to the MD-80 (in this case Allegiant Air) and then taxi. Usually pilots request their VFR climb on the taxi roll or sometimes when they get their clearance. I would assume (and i think the tower assumes the same) that they will request one. Then they pull up to the hold short line on a blue bird VFR day and await IFR release. I usually request back taxi to an intersection to get off around them.
The MD-80 pilot will then ask how long the wait will be. The tower will hint at a VFR climb.
Then a really funny thing happens. When they finally get cleared for takeoff, they say "So i am to understand, runway heading after takeoff"
"No sir, departure procedure is at your discretion"

I just have to laugh. There is a huge Mountain right in front of the guy.
 
The one in-one out rule only shoudl apply to IFR, VFR should not impact that. Obviously IFR is provided proper separation, but VFR is not afforded the same separation. As long as runway separation exists, other separation is essentially up to the pilot as long as it is VMC, in Class D airspace. I know it is much more complicated, and some Class D's have a TRACON, I'm just speaking generally. When an IFR is ready to go, I just call the facility that provides radar services and request a release, and tell them what runway the IFR will depart off of. They will release them even if VFR targets are in the air. Even at that, once communications on that IFR departure is transfered to the radar facility, and that a/c is radar identitfied, they can launch another IFR then, even if the first is still in the Class D airspace. Plus if there will be proper divergence in flight paths, there can be two IFR departures cleared for takeoff right behind one another. The divergence is 45 degrees is in a non-radar scenario or 15 degrees if in a radar scenario. IFR arrivals can be another story though, but I won't get into that at this point, unless you want me to
 
I think i understand it. If an aircraft does not request a VFR climb in VFR conditions, then they must wait for IFR release until the other flight coming in cancels IFR or the tower gets them in sight.

Is this right
 
Essentially that is correct. It is up to the facility that provides radar services as to whether an IFR flight will be allowed to pick up the clearance in the air after departing VFR (I know it is ultimately up to the pilot, but if the facility says no, there is probably a pretty good reasoning for it), and the radar facility is the only on that can initiate visual separation. The VFR tower can not offer it to the radar facility, it only works the other way around. And as a pilot, it is pointless to ask for it for the same reasoning. Also, if there are two IFR's, it could be that the tower is guaranteeing (sp?) the visual separation, so that might be why the pilots are not asked to maintain it, since the VFR tower is providing it
 
ok I see. So it's not the tower granting the IFR release, it's Salt Lake Center (in my case). The tower just relays the message from center. Its pretty much like taking off from an uncontrolled airport where you don't have center and all you do is talk to FSS to get your clearance and release (although it will have a void time). So when a pilot requests a VFR Climb then the tower puts it on request with the center.
 
flyboywbl said:
ok I see. So it's not the tower granting the IFR release, it's Salt Lake Center (in my case). The tower just relays the message from center. Its pretty much like taking off from an uncontrolled airport where you don't have center and all you do is talk to FSS to get your clearance and release (although it will have a void time). So when a pilot requests a VFR Climb then the tower puts it on request with the center.
Click to expand...

This is why you hear when a plane calls up from the ramp for taxi at a Class D airport (for example): "XXX tower, Twin Cessna XXX, IFR to Phoenix, ready to taxi." Ground comes back with "Twin Cessna XXX, taxi to Rwy 21, Clearance on Request". The ground controller calls TRACON/ARTCC, etc over the landline: "Tracon, XXX tower, request release Twin Cessna XXXX" TRACON/ARTCC issues the clearance to the ground controller. Ground controller calls up: "Twin Cessna XXX, clearance available, advise ready to copy" . At some point the Twin Cessna copies the clearance from ground, taxies for takeoff, and gets takeoff clearance. After departure, tower clears him to change freqs to departure freq to contact whichever radar facility he has to.


Similarly for landing IFR traffic at a Class D airport, when they check in with tower, and land; tower calls the radar facility to advise them that Cessna XXX is on the ground, so the facility is aware. For a non-tower uncontrolled field, or after tower is closed; its incumbant on the pilot to advise when he's landed.

I as a pilot will try to be courteous when flying IFR, but in VMC in these cases. If I'm inbound to a towered Class D field, after being handed from ARTCC/TRACON/RAPCON, etc, and checking in with them. It might go something like this:

"XXX tower, Ghost XX, 15 northeast out of 6,000"

"Ghost XX, roger, make straight-in runway 21, report 5 mile final"

"Copy straight in 21, report 5 miles. Do you have any IFRs awaiting release?"

"Ghost XX affirmative."

"Copy, am visual the field, request cancel IFR, proceed VFR."

"Ghost XX, copy, cancellation of IFR received, report 5 mile final runway 21"

"Twin Cessna XXX, are you ready for departure?".....

Bascially, a little courtesy has allowed for tower to now release waiting IFR departures when I don't really need to retain my IFR clearance. No need for them to sit and burn fuel on my account.
 
MikeD said:
This is why you hear when a plane calls up from the ramp for taxi at a Class D airport (for example): "XXX tower, Twin Cessna XXX, IFR to Phoenix, ready to taxi." Ground comes back with "Twin Cessna XXX, taxi to Rwy 21, Clearance on Request". The ground controller calls TRACON/ARTCC, etc over the landline: "Tracon, XXX tower, request release Twin Cessna XXXX" TRACON/ARTCC issues the clearance to the ground controller. Ground controller calls up: "Twin Cessna XXX, clearance available, advise ready to copy" . At some point the Twin Cessna copies the clearance from ground, taxies for takeoff, and gets takeoff clearance. After departure, tower clears him to change freqs to departure freq to contact whichever radar facility he has to.


Similarly for landing IFR traffic at a Class D airport, when they check in with tower, and land; tower calls the radar facility to advise them that Cessna XXX is on the ground, so the facility is aware. For a non-tower uncontrolled field, or after tower is closed; its incumbant on the pilot to advise when he's landed.

I as a pilot will try to be courteous when flying IFR, but in VMC in these cases. If I'm inbound to a towered Class D field, after being handed from ARTCC/TRACON/RAPCON, etc, and checking in with them. It might go something like this:

"XXX tower, Ghost XX, 15 northeast out of 6,000"

"Ghost XX, roger, make straight-in runway 21, report 5 mile final"

"Copy straight in 21, report 5 miles. Do you have any IFRs awaiting release?"

"Ghost XX affirmative."

"Copy, am visual the field, request cancel IFR, proceed VFR."

"Ghost XX, copy, cancellation of IFR received, report 5 mile final runway 21"

"Twin Cessna XXX, are you ready for departure?".....

Bascially, a little courtesy has allowed for tower to now release waiting IFR departures when I don't really need to retain my IFR clearance. No need for them to sit and burn fuel on my account.
Click to expand...

Sounds good, thanks. when i went up to the tower i actually heard the tower guys talking to center when an inbound landed. Also the clearances comes out of this little machine on a strip of paper. I don't think they actually need to talk to center to get the clearance.
 
flyboywbl said:
Sounds good, thanks. when i went up to the tower i actually heard the tower guys talking to center when an inbound landed. Also the clearances comes out of this little machine on a strip of paper. I don't think they actually need to talk to center to get the clearance.
Click to expand...
thats hows it works here. very rarely you hear "clearance on request" unless you filed minutes before you call.
 
BuickCFI said:
thats hows it works here. very rarely you hear "clearance on request" unless you filed minutes before you call.
Click to expand...

With the new techonology items like that, tower should already have it handy for you. At old school towers, they still have to do it the old fashioned way :)
 
MikeD said:
...Bascially, a little courtesy has allowed for tower to now release waiting IFR departures when I don't really need to retain my IFR clearance. No need for them to sit and burn fuel on my account.
Click to expand...
Just a little more information here, for those that are up-and-coming. There are companies that do not allow you to cancel IFR to help in a situation like this. My former charter company had it in the Ops Man that you could not cancel and could not do contact approaches.

So, it may not be that the guys don't want to be courteous, they may not be able to. Then again, some pilots did not come up in the freight ranks and may not feel comfortable with or know all the tricks in the book:D.
 
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