Class B & VFR Practice Approaches

[GolfChuck]

Problem with that is I dont really care how a controller feels and if they get butt hurt over a clarification on a clearance then they need a vacation, particularly if it puts me at risk of being violated, which the LOI specifically says it does. Say "cleared into bravo", it's not that hard.

Well I would be much more likely to violate a pilot for deviating from an assigned heading than for violating airspace that my heading took him into.

The second paragraph in the quoted LOI makes no sense "if the pilot only received a vector...the pilot did not receive a clearance." I beg to differ.

 

[rframe]

Well I would be much more likely to violate a pilot for deviating from an assigned heading than for violating airspace that my heading took him into.

Well, no offense but as a controller you dont get to violate anybody, so I'm much more interested in what an inspector has to say about it and expect everyone to use correct verbiage so as to avoid confusion in the first place. This isn't that hard.

 

[genot]

I always clear into the bravo. Even if I'm busy and forget, I'm obviously not too busy to give practice approaches to VFR so I have time to say oh yeah, cleared into the bravo when queried and not get snotty about it.

IMO it would be pretty weak for a controller to blame the pilot for crappy awareness based on a technicality. I know where my Bravo is and I know when you're in it I owe you as a VFR more than just target resolution. Having said that, as a pilot, I wouldn't blame anyone one bit for verifying in case something happens and you end up with a visit from the FSDO.

Also, if a pilot who is VFR refuses to enter class B, what exactly are we trying to violate them for? Sounds easy enough to me. Radar service terminated, squawk VFR.

 

[GolfChuck]

Well, no offense but as a controller you dont get to violate anybody, so I'm much more interested in what an inspector has to say about it and expect everyone to use correct verbiage so as to avoid confusion in the first place. This isn't that hard.

How do you think violations occur if controllers don't get to violate pilots? Sure, QA investigates, but it starts with the controller telling the sup and the controller reading the script card "call sign: possible pilot deviation, upon landing advise you contact..." Words you never want to hear.

Most of us would rather not deal with the hassle of filing paperwork, so you have to really screw up bad and get an attitude about it to have that happen. We are all human, sometimes mistakes are made.

 

[fholbert]

You do know half the people here are wondering what a TCA is?

More restrictive than Stage III. Less restrictive than PCA.

The law judge reversed an order of the Administrator that charged respondent with entry into the New York Terminal Control Area (TCA) without appropriate authorization from air traffic control (ATC) before doing so.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

The second paragraph in the quoted LOI makes no sense "if the pilot only received a vector...the pilot did not receive a clearance." I beg to differ.

It think where the confusion comes from is the need to simplify things for student pilots. As an instructor, it would be over the heads of most primary students to say "Well, you need a clearance into a Bravo airspace, and if you have flight following, that doesn't clear you into a Bravo. But a clearance for an instrument procedure, or an instrument enroute clearance is sufficient" The last part isn't relevant to a PPL student, so we simplify things by telling them "Don't enter Bravo airspace without hearing "cleared into the Bravo""

 

[derg]

so we simplify things by telling them "Don't enter Bravo airspace without hearing "cleared into the Bravo""

That's how I would teach it.

 

[GolfChuck]

It think where the confusion comes from is the need to simplify things for student pilots. As an instructor, it would be over the heads of most primary students to say "Well, you need a clearance into a Bravo airspace, and if you have flight following, that doesn't clear you into a Bravo. But a clearance for an instrument procedure, or an instrument enroute clearance is sufficient" The last part isn't relevant to a PPL student, so we simplify things by telling them "Don't enter Bravo airspace without hearing "cleared into the Bravo""

Point taken, but back to the OP, I would say being told "cleared for practice GPS approach maintain 3000 until xxxxx, maintain VFR" implies a class B clearance, by virtue of the fact that portions of the approach are in class B. The maintain VFR portion serves to advise that pilot that deviation from the approach is allowed to maintain VFR flight conditions, or maybe that separation services are not being provided. That part is ambiguous, but it doesn't rescind the implied B clearance. In this case, asking the controller for clarification is warranted.

I simplified it by using the heading/altitude example. Other cases in which I would ask for specific permission would be "N123AB radar contact...proceed on course to XXX." To me that does not imply a B clearance. In practice, when I check in with approach, I would state my request for the bravo clearance on call up "Approach Skyhawk 123AB over ZZZZZ 5500 requesting bravo transition to XXX, able 7500" or something to that effect.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Point taken, but back to the OP, I would say being told "cleared for practice GPS approach maintain 3000 until xxxxx, maintain VFR" implies a class B clearance, by virtue of the fact that portions of the approach are in class B. The maintain VFR portion serves to advise that pilot that deviation from the approach is allowed to maintain VFR flight conditions, or maybe that separation services are not being provided. That part is ambiguous, but it doesn't rescind the implied B clearance. In this case, asking the controller for clarification is warranted.

I agree completely, pretty much every practice approach clearance around here would make no sense if it didn't implicitly include a B clearance.

For the average PPL student, they have no idea what a practice approach is, and there is no reason to confuse them. Never heard of a student around here getting a phone number from reading back "Cleared for ILS 23, will remain VMC, verify cleared Bravo." Have heard of plenty buzzing through a B with flight following though, with predictable consequences.

 

[rframe]

How do you think violations occur if controllers don't get to violate pilots? Sure, QA investigates, but it starts with the controller telling the sup and the controller reading the script card "call sign: possible pilot deviation, upon landing advise you contact..." Words you never want to hear.

Most of us would rather not deal with the hassle of filing paperwork, so you have to really screw up bad and get an attitude about it to have that happen. We are all human, sometimes mistakes are made.

Right, my only point is a controller files a possible deviation. They aren't cops, they aren't the judge, they dont "violate" anybody. The incident is handed over to an inspector (if the supervisor even goes that far rather than just chewing the pilot out and leaving it at that, which happens) who gathers the actual facts and decides what (if anything) needs to be done about it. Any enforcement is handled by the inspector after reviewing the actual facts. Hence, my point of not caring if I annoy a controller about asking for clarification on a clearance that they were supposed to read in the first place. If something happens that has escalated an incident to the point where an inspector is listening to the tape, its my rear as PIC, and saying "well I assumed...." is not a good defense.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Hence, my point of not caring if I annoy a controller about asking for clarification on a clearance that they were supposed to read in the first place.

I don't think any controller is going to get bent out of shape when a pilot verifies something, it usually happens more the other way around, with pilots skipping required read backs...

 

[rframe]

I don't think any controller is going to get bent out of shape when a pilot verifies something, it usually happens more the other way around, with pilots skipping required read backs...

I wouldnt think so either, and have had controllers tell me more than once (on facilities tours) that they always want a pilot to ask for confirmation if they aren't certain on something. Which is why Post #19 from a controller was a little disturbing.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

I wouldnt think so either, and have had controllers tell me more than once (on facilities tours) that they always want a pilot to ask for confirmation if they aren't certain on something. Which is why Post #19 from a controller was a little disturbing.

Greg's a center guy like me, so classes of airspace are just vague concepts to be discussed with all the interest of a debate on favorite vice presidents of the 19th century.

Is he in my airspace? Ok, we're good.

 

[rframe]

LOL, OK... sorry to get all up tight.

 

[N90-EWR]

If you did not receive a "cleared into the xyz class bravo airspace" clearance, then you should ask the controller to give you a bravo clearance.

 

[rd757]

Thanks guys! I like the input from the different sides of the system. Keep it going! Every new voice provides a little different view and we can all benefit from it.

Interestingly enough, this morning I was cleared into the Bravo for an approach that wasn't going to take me into the Bravo. We were at 2400ft (Bravo is at 3,000) and the approach course parallels the SFC shelf. I guess when you should get one you don't, but they're ready to hand them out like candy when you don't need it.

 

[GolfChuck]

Greg's a center guy like me, so classes of airspace are just vague concepts to be discussed with all the interest of a debate on favorite vice presidents of the 19th century.

Is he in my airspace? Ok, we're good.

(speaking as a pilot) Flying around the airspace that I do, I find that even in Class B, C or E, unless specifically advised otherwise, the controller is providing me with separation services from all other aircraft (even though it is technically not required). I try to put myself in the controllers' shoes. I can't envision an approach controller around here thinking "ok, that guy isn't in bravo, so I don't have to issue that traffic advisory (or vector) because he is separating himself (maybe N90-EWR can verify this). Even where I work, we issue traffic advisories to IFR aircraft in class A, even though as far as I can tell, that is not required.

As a controller, as far as I am concerned, it falls on me to separate all aircraft from all other aircraft, regardless of flight rules or class of airspace. I am the one who would have to live with myself if I didn't do something that I could have to prevent an accident, just because the regs said I could or should instead of I shall.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

You do know half the people here are wondering what a TCA is?

More restrictive than Stage III. Less restrictive than PCA.

I like the names "Terminal Control Area" and "Airport Radar Service Area" better than "B" and "C". You know, because they're descriptive. As are Continental Control Area, Positive Control Area, and Transition Area...and so on.

 

[fholbert]

Airport Radar Service Area.

I think you mean Terminal Radar Service Area. Proceeded by Stage I, Stage II or Stage III.

 

[genot]

Thanks guys! I like the input from the different sides of the system. Keep it going! Every new voice provides a little different view and we can all benefit from it.

Interestingly enough, this morning I was cleared into the Bravo for an approach that wasn't going to take me into the Bravo. We were at 2400ft (Bravo is at 3,000) and the approach course parallels the SFC shelf. I guess when you should get one you don't, but they're ready to hand them out like candy when you don't need it.

I'm not surprised by that. The volume of what they ask us to memorize combined with the frequency we use most of it is pretty spectacular. At my facility they basically toss the approach plates at you and brief them once along with LOAs, airspace and local procedures over a 5 day period. The next 5 days are all sims. At the end you draw all plates and list all LOA's, Freqs and procedures by memory. I work approach for 17 different airports in my TRACON. Our main airport has 24 approaches. My written on the sectors similar to what you are describing involved in the neighborhood of drawing 100 approach plates from memory. That doesn't include 48 different frequencies etc.

Some of them I use at best once a year. Several I've never used. Needless to say I don't have them all commited to memory. Our layout is such that I don't have a question on if a Bravo clearance is necessary, but I can see why they gave the clearance to preclude anything.