Civilian WOFT Packet Question

[Lawman]

But the WOs job is to fly, not the case of the other branches. Go on baseops and I'm sure they would take less money to fly more.

I haven't been in a flying position since November of 2013... If I'm luckily I will fly something in Feb or March. I'm not even a staff guy.

I'm on baseops, ask those guys how they would feel about having the new Lt decide that the whole unit was going to do a 12 mile air assault standard ruck march. The days of WOs being just pilots are long gone.

 

[Ian_J]

I haven't been in a flying position since November of 2013... If I'm luckily I will fly something in Feb or March. I'm not even a staff guy.

Budget issues?

 

[Lawman]

Budget issues?

Nope just finding jobs that arent the ones they show in the Thunderstruck video.


Its more the misrepresentation that all a Warrant does is fly in an aviation unit, or even that its his primary duty. Over a 6 month period right now if your breaking 100 total flight hours you are way ahead of the curve. Over the last 2 years with the exception of when I was deployed I averaged about 120-130 hours a year with the Sim making up any gaps in minimums I wasnt making. Then there were periods of time like me being the Company Movement Officer prior to Deployment, so I spent 2 months not flying at all (literally ever) and then doing 1 quick night flight reset before deployment. I flew 30 hours in 6 months. In that time I spent most of my day being a Logistics Officer packing containers and arranging movement plans, etc.

If you go warrant thinking your going to spend the majority of your 20 years in the career flying, your sorely mistaken. The CW4 at the company level... it doesnt exist anymore because its not a promotable profile. You can spent a good size chunk of your first 10 years flying in a line unit if your lucky.... after that its a crap shoot depending on what you track and how promotable you need to be to finish out your time to retirement.

 

[Ian_J]

Nope just finding jobs that arent the ones they show in the Thunderstruck video.


Its more the misrepresentation that all a Warrant does is fly in an aviation unit, or even that its his primary duty. Over a 6 month period right now if your breaking 100 total flight hours you are way ahead of the curve. Over the last 2 years with the exception of when I was deployed I averaged about 120-130 hours a year with the Sim making up any gaps in minimums I wasnt making. Then there were periods of time like me being the Company Movement Officer prior to Deployment, so I spent 2 months not flying at all (literally ever) and then doing 1 quick night flight reset before deployment. I flew 30 hours in 6 months. In that time I spent most of my day being a Logistics Officer packing containers and arranging movement plans, etc.

If you go warrant thinking your going to spend the majority of your 20 years in the career flying, your sorely mistaken. The CW4 at the company level... it doesnt exist anymore because its not a promotable profile. You can spent a good size chunk of your first 10 years flying in a line unit if your lucky.... after that its a crap shoot depending on what you track and how promotable you need to be to finish out your time to retirement.

Interesting. Any idea what your Company's annual flying hour allocation is?

 

[Lawman]

Not since I went away from the Battalion on deployment.

When I was in Germany we were the only unit that was advertising having the per-sequestration hours. Even that wasnt very impressive. Pilot to Pilot its a bit different but unless your an IP and your unit has a lot of RL progressions and APARTs going on, not a lot of flying to be had. Everybody has a very skewed idea of what life looks like since we have a bunch of multiple deployment W2(p) and W3s running around who are in the company level with 2-3K hours. This last deployment we didnt see those kind of hours like the previous 09-10 years of the surge. Talking to guys over deployed now its almost garrison hours with the over-saturation of pilots (trying to get new Lts right shoulder patches) to taskings and aircraft available.

 

[scoobs]

When did the Armys WOs start flying so little? Sounds like the last good gig is over. So your not going to fly at all this year? Is it different based on airframe?

 

[Lawman]

When did the Armys WOs start flying so little? Sounds like the last good gig is over. So your not going to fly at all this year? Is it different based on airframe?

Constant deployments and all we do is fly. Field problem this month, gunnery the month after next... But you still have additional duties. Maybe your just the pubs guy so once a month you hand out maps, maybe your doing something more involved like flight operations officer. Thing is now the deployments are falling off but the additional duty monster is in for good. And that doesn't factor in things like being the only available group of bodies when tasking to do motor stables or 100% inventories comes up. Expect to spent company aviator time as available manual labor.

Thing is really more tied to promotion rates and the Army going back to the two looks and your out system. Nobody that sits on the board cares if you flew 500 or 5000 hours in support of your commander. They want to see you were responsible for xxx millions of dollars in equipment or that you can train x number of aircrews in fratricide prevention. And now that there's no room for CW4s at the company level and not enough 4s to go around so they strip our W3s you are destined for a staff job with your success.

 

[scoobs]

Interesting, so are more guys bailing now that flying and promotions down? As far as flying you can be in a non flying gig and not staff? Finally, are the day to day hours still good or is 10-12 normal like CO's?

 

[DaveC]

I pulled 11.5 duty hours today, and 12 hours days are not outside the norm. The only people flying much here are the IP/SP Warrants. Plenty of additional duties to keep me busy though.

 

[Lawman]

Interesting, so are more guys bailing now that flying and promotions down? As far as flying you can be in a non flying gig and not staff? Finally, are the day to day hours still good or is 10-12 normal like CO's?

If your counting 0600 PT (which is mandatory for the most part at any post with a division) yeah 11-12 hour days are completely normal. That's non flying days by the way.

I'm in a non flying non staff gig now. On the one hand it's a broadening assignment so lots of good for my career, but I'm not doing anything aviation related to my career. Other jobs like Maintenance test pilot, you will if successful end up a battalion PC officer or something similar where your still an MTP, but your time is spent maintaining the MX program for the battalion, and your pretty much never flying missions unless you make an effort to do so. And MX flights are a .2 or .5 for a full day of work.

Other end of the spectrum you have IPs, but while there are lots of hours to be made for those guys it's all left turns around the pattern with a few mission hours doing other things. They typically have too much on the plate for the battalion wide pre NTC effort of doing realistic training.

 

[Soku39]

Guard Herc dude here, just read this threat pretty much in disbelief. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know the day of the WO was so far gone. I couldn't imagine a re-up after that kinda stuff.

 

[Ian_J]

Guard Herc dude here, just read this threat pretty much in disbelief. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know the day of the WO was so far gone. I couldn't imagine a re-up after that kinda stuff.

Not so fast... What you're hearing is a valid viewpoint but a very myopic one. A warrant in a company in a battalion in a brigade in a division... They all have their differences.

Also, after 21 years of service, I often wonder when exactly "the day of WO" actually occurred.

All manor of line pilots - AF RLOs to Army WOs often complain about those feared "additional duties." It was alluded to early, but bears repeating, these additional duties, for the most part, are incredibly easy. They usually have a singular focus, follow checklists, and are the absolutely only other thing a WO does.

Long days are not (usually) because the job takes that long. Usually poor leadership keeps guys late for no particular reason when it happens. And it always doesn't happen. And PT? Yeah, I guess you could count that... But then again, you are getting paid to exercise. And you did join the Army... Known for getting up early to exercise.

Here's the reality for a new Army warrant. Expect to fly 2-4 hours a week, depending on unit. Expect eventually to get an additional duty. That duty is what you make it and it really isn't that bad. UMO is the exception... It is that bad, but is limited to deployments. Gain some perspective by looking around at what everyone else is actually doing and realize you get paid pretty well for doing very little. Enjoy that.

You will have ALOT of downtime at first. Use that time to get the book-learning part of being a "subject matter expert" down pat. Dig into those senior PCs and IPs for knowledge. Don't be one of those warrants who gets outshined by the RLOs (all to common these days). Not flying enough is no excuse to not know your 5&9, systems, gunnery knowledge, etc.

And realize the flying gets better. Once you are a PC, YOU will Fly more. Once you are a flight lead, you will fly more. Once you are a unit trainer you will fly more. Once you are an air mission commander, you will fly more.

 

[zVo]

I'm an Army Major and I say that all the time. Not in a derogatory way though... More of a "you guys are getting the shaft" kind of way. Your Air Force, Marine, Navy, and CG brothers (with minor exceptions) are doing your job for more money. While they are getting paid RLO salaries, you guys should too. However, they all should be warrants too if you ask me.

In the same breath, I think "you guys [RLOs] are getting the shaft" as far as flying hours. You get paid as the same RLO salaries as the other services but get to fly a fraction of what they do. I am grateful for my job as a warrant, however, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't putting together my packet for the Coast Guard's Direct Commission Aviator program. The delineation between an Army aviation warrant officer and commissioned officer aviator in another service is nebulous at best.

"Cheap labor" is correct. Aside from saving Uncle Sam a few sheckles, I see no reason why Army warrant aviators should exist. Like you said, commissioned aviators in other services are doing our exact same job... and likewise Army commissioned officers could and should be doing much of what our job entails (IP, MTP, etc.).

 

[scoobs]

Lawman are you an IP? Non flying non staff gig sounds like an oxymoron.

 

[Lawman]

Lawman are you an IP? Non flying non staff gig sounds like an oxymoron.

Nope, AMSO.

There are actually a lot of weird 1 off jobs that nobody but HRC has ever heard of too. I don't just mean the Brigade BAE cell either. I didn't know we had a CW2-4 billet with the Air Force to put a pilot on a JStars as an LNO.... Then I met a guy filling the billet. 2 year non flying (in a manner of speaking) assignment.

 

[Ian_J]

In the same breath, I think "you guys [RLOs] are getting the shaft" as far as flying hours. You get paid as the same RLO salaries as the other services but get to fly a fraction of what they do. I am grateful for my job as a warrant, however, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't putting together my packet for the Coast Guard's Direct Commission Aviator program. The delineation between an Army aviation warrant officer and commissioned officer aviator in another service is nebulous at best.

"Cheap labor" is correct. Aside from saving Uncle Sam a few sheckles, I see no reason why Army warrant aviators should exist. Like you said, commissioned aviators in other services are doing our exact same job... and likewise Army commissioned officers could and should be doing much of what our job entails (IP, MTP, etc.).

Agreed. But what the Army would struggle with if we adopted an Air Force-like all commissioned pilot structure is the leadership and staff development piece. Where do you get your company commanders and assistant and primary staff officers? How would their development fit in with the rest of the Army? It'd be a really tough but to crack once you went a few layers deep with the thinking and would take a radical shift in thinking at a senior level.

Since leaving the active service and joining the guard I've seen how the guard has blurred a lot of those RLO/WO lines and it's kind of interesting. In my tiny part of the guard, the Battalion XO is an IP and IE. The Battalion S-3 is an IP and an MP. Commissioned and warrants get very equal opportunities to fly. The flying hour budget is weak, but generally pilots are able to fly 8-16 hours a month. Commissioned PCs, IPs, and MPs manage to stay very proficient in the aircraft while still performing their leadership or staff duties well. It's a different world.

 

[scoobs]

Nope, AMSO.

There are actually a lot of weird 1 off jobs that nobody but HRC has ever heard of too. I don't just mean the Brigade BAE cell either. I didn't know we had a CW2-4 billet with the Air Force to put a pilot on a JStars as an LNO.... Then I met a guy filling the billet. 2 year non flying (in a manner of speaking) assignment.

So if you want to fly more is going the Ip route better? Are people retiring as 4's or getting booted before?

 

[Lawman]

So if you want to fly more is going the Ip route better? Are people retiring as 4's or getting booted before?

IP's fly because they have to. But at the same time your not so much flying as sitting in the aircraft letting another dude fly. The other issue with it is IPs get sucked into the building and maintaining of the ATP, so its not a lot of the fun go out and do stuff missions (at least not in the attack community) its a lot of left turn left turn left turn rollon/auto/land. Makes you a good stick but it seems like for every good shooter IP there are 2 that suck at it. Even so yeah your getting 5 hours for everybody elses 2 but the days of 2500 hour CW2s are gone. There just arent deployments for you to bag up all those hours flying circles in the sky.

The retirement thing is a funny animal with our community. We have a very large population of former enlisted (about 3/4). So a lot of guys dont need to get much higher than senior CW2 or 3 to retire. When you walk into Warrant with 12 years already in you can make your safe date without even running out of passes on the CW3 board. Street to seat or guys that only did a year or two enlisted dont have that option. You have to make CW4 to get promoted. This year was the first time in a while where the promotion rate to 4 has been above 50% pickup. So lots of doom and gloom when you look around and go "whats gonna make me better than the next guy on the board." Thats been the push for people to get moved into staff jobs. Im technically in a CW3 MTOE position but unless your battalion is just stacked with tracked dudes, you dont see many CW3's in the company, usually just an SP and maybe another IP/Safety/MTP for good measure. For my track its two CW4 MTOE positions in a Battalion, but you'd be lucky to see a single CW3 or 4. Just not enough senior dudes to go around.

 

[scoobs]

Great info, any word when the Guard is loosing their Apaches?

 

[Lawman]

Great info, any word when the Guard is loosing their Apaches?

Its all done except the crying in front of Congress. In the end it will happen, the Guard is just pulling at the last few congressmen who give a damn (IE states they are based in) to appeal on the "itll cost you votes" argument.

We've already started divesting the 58D. The heads up at the top just havent given specifics not wanting to start the "End is Near!" panic by actually announcing who is staying and who is being let go.