Citation Soveriegn

chrisreedrules said:
Basically yes... PIC typed, logging PIC time every other leg. Putting that cool 45K in the bank...
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To be fair, they are FO's that paid for their own type. My guess is they didn't have a line check done, so they were not acting PIC. It's still pathetic though.
 
Stone Cold said:
To be fair, they are FO's that paid for their own type. My guess is they didn't have a line check done, so they were not acting PIC. It's still pathetic though.
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I know... But to hold a PIC type in hand and to be able to log "PIC time" (that's another point of contention I have) every other leg they should be compensated at the very least to industry standards for the air frame. I kind of take the 121 view of logging PIC time. Only the person signing for everything gets to log the time as PIC. Especially with passengers in the back. Or to put it another way... Who is the FAA going to want to talk to if you have to declare an emergency? That person is the one who should be logging the PIC time.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I know... But to hold a PIC type in hand and to be able to log "PIC time" (that's another point of contention I have) every other leg they should be compensated at the very least to industry standards for the air frame. I kind of take the 121 view of logging PIC time. Only the person signing for everything gets to log the time as PIC. Especially with passengers in the back. Or to put it another way... Who is the FAA going to want to talk to if you have to declare an emergency? That person is the one who should be logging the PIC time.
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I tend to agree. That is how most of the rest of the world does it...P1 time. But, the FAA allows it, and it can help insurance wise and ARGUS, etc., so I don't fault crews who do it in the 91/135 world. If they don't have a line check done and qualified to act as PIC, then I think it's disingenuous if they are saying they are co-captain, or something. They are an FO.

Over here, we are all line qualified captains, are designated as PIC according to the company, and get paid as such.
 
Well good news I suppose.

I've been offered an FO position on a Sovereign!

For those that haven't read my earlier posts here's my situation. I'm a low time guy (1100 total time) with a PIC type on the 680 (that I received via the 2014 CAE Simuflite scholarship).

Here's my questions though for you guys with way more experience than me dealing with 135 outfits.

Yes, I have been offered an FO position but I do feel that I'm being extremely low balled. The company wants me to sign a training contract since I have to go to flight safety and do a week long re-current training to be brought on to their 135 certificate. Also, as far as pay, they have offered me a salary/flight hour compensation plan. The salary is $25k with an additional $37.50/flight hour. They said to expect around 500 flight hours a year. So if that's true than my yearly pay will be somewhere around $43k. Now should I be okay with that number? I mean yes, I know that I'm a low time guy with no jet experience, but isn't 43k a little low for an FO on a Sovereign?

They have told me to give them an answer in regards to their offer by the end of this week. I really am contemplating calling them and negotiating the salary. Like I said, I realize that they are taking a chance on me since I am a low time guy with no jet experience, but...I do feel that I should be receiving more pay, I do have a PIC type on the 680 after all. Shouldn't that be worth more as an FO than 43k?

Thoughts/comments/suggestions/advice?
 
Charlie Foxtrot said:
Well good news I suppose.

I've been offered an FO position on a Sovereign!

For those that haven't read my earlier posts here's my situation. I'm a low time guy (1100 total time) with a PIC type on the 680 (that I received via the 2014 CAE Simuflite scholarship).

Here's my questions though for you guys with way more experience than me dealing with 135 outfits.

Yes, I have been offered an FO position but I do feel that I'm being extremely low balled. The company wants me to sign a training contract since I have to go to flight safety and do a week long re-current training to be brought on to their 135 certificate. Also, as far as pay, they have offered me a salary/flight hour compensation plan. The salary is $25k with an additional $37.50/flight hour. They said to expect around 500 flight hours a year. So if that's true than my yearly pay will be somewhere around $43k. Now should I be okay with that number? I mean yes, I know that I'm a low time guy with no jet experience, but isn't 43k a little low for an FO on a Sovereign?

They have told me to give them an answer in regards to their offer by the end of this week. I really am contemplating calling them and negotiating the salary. Like I said, I realize that they are taking a chance on me since I am a low time guy with no jet experience, but...I do feel that I should be receiving more pay, I do have a PIC type on the 680 after all. Shouldn't that be worth more as an FO than 43k?

Thoughts/comments/suggestions/advice?
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Well... It sounds a little fishy to me. They could be locking you into a low pay crap fest with that training contract and those compensation numbers. How long is the training contract for? And is there any mention of a second year raise? If it were me, I would ask to see proof of the amount of flight time they flew in previous years. I still think they are choosing to pay you in such a way that is more beneficial to them than you.
 
I guess what I'm saying is tread carefully... In my opinion a job offer should be enticing to both parties. Like a business partnership. Would you agree to an investment deal that benefits the other guy more than you?
 
Charlie Foxtrot said:
Thoughts/comments/suggestions/advice?
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I have been in a similar position before. Low time and offered a PIC slot in a Conquest II. The problem is that they only offered $30k and that plane paid $60k on average. I had to turn the position down.

IMO you saved them a lot of money already by having the type. There is no need for them to be low balling you.
 
First, congrats on earning that PIC type. That's a great accomplishment at your experience. That said, I don't think that it really comes in to play when negotiating your salary. You're still being hired as an FO and you don't have any time in type. Either way though, that salary sounds really low for the position. The Pro Pilot Salary survey has charter Sovereign FO as low $49K, average $56K, high $74K. Maybe see if you can get the base up to $30K.

Now to the training contract. While I said that I don't think your type should affect your salary, I do think that it should affect your training contract. I would definitely ask what they would normally have a new hire sign and then compare that to what you are signing. Obviously your training will cost them less money and that needs to be reflected in the contract.

Off subject question. Your profile says that you have an ATP, but you state you only have 1100 total. How does that work?
 
SrFnFly227 said:
Off subject question. Your profile says that you have an ATP, but you state you only have 1100 total. How does that work?
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Haha, and yes I know this may seem weird to you. But, I do have an ATP. I went to one of the qualified 141 Universities and received special authorization to get what they call the "Restricted" ATP at a lower hour rate than 1500. The RATP is an ATP. All the restriction means is that I cannot act as PIC 121/135 until I cross 1500 hours. Once I cross 1500 I can go to a FSDO and have the "R" removed and than it becomes a normal/regular ATP. These RATPs are going to become more and more common in the industry with all the changes that have happened in the past couple of years (Colgan air crash/ new ATP rules). 141 University people like me now qualify for the RATP at 1000 hours and Military pilots qualify for the RATP at 750 hours.

http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/1500rule/

http://www.avweb.com/news/features/The-New-ATPA-Brief-Window-Before-the-Sky-Falls221453-1.html

Anyway, back to the topic,

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

I'm going to give the company a call later today and ask a few questions / see if I can get the base salary bumped up a bit, also discuss the training contract in more detail. Like I said, I know that they are taking a chance with me, but they do seem eager to hire because it sounds like they have been having a hard time finding 680 people. I suppose there are not a lot of 680 people out of work - that's a good thing!

I have done my research and seen the numbers on Pro Pilot Salary, has anyone used that to negotiate pay before if their pay was less than the standard?
 
Charlie Foxtrot said:
Well good news I suppose.

I've been offered an FO position on a Sovereign!

For those that haven't read my earlier posts here's my situation. I'm a low time guy (1100 total time) with a PIC type on the 680 (that I received via the 2014 CAE Simuflite scholarship).

Here's my questions though for you guys with way more experience than me dealing with 135 outfits.

Yes, I have been offered an FO position but I do feel that I'm being extremely low balled. The company wants me to sign a training contract since I have to go to flight safety and do a week long re-current training to be brought on to their 135 certificate. Also, as far as pay, they have offered me a salary/flight hour compensation plan. The salary is $25k with an additional $37.50/flight hour. They said to expect around 500 flight hours a year. So if that's true than my yearly pay will be somewhere around $43k. Now should I be okay with that number? I mean yes, I know that I'm a low time guy with no jet experience, but isn't 43k a little low for an FO on a Sovereign?

They have told me to give them an answer in regards to their offer by the end of this week. I really am contemplating calling them and negotiating the salary. Like I said, I realize that they are taking a chance on me since I am a low time guy with no jet experience, but...I do feel that I should be receiving more pay, I do have a PIC type on the 680 after all. Shouldn't that be worth more as an FO than 43k?

Thoughts/comments/suggestions/advice?
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Jesus. I don't give a crap if you are low time or not that base salary is horrid. You should be making another 20k on top. You are fully type rated and a qualified and required crew member. That pay is lower than the 2013 PP survey's low salary range.

You are fully qualified so you don't need a full initial at the new company, so anything over a year contract (should be no contract) is too long. The pay combined with the contract are 2 major red flags. Are there medical benefits? Per diem? What kind of hotels do they put you in? Do you get a rental car on layovers? How much time off do you get a month? Is it shady 24/7 on call?
 
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