Citation Roll

You can't just look at a 10 second clip and expect to know everything about the event. Our Citation Ultra was used as a test bed for the Citation Ultra sim in Orlando. The pilot told me they had to do all sorts of crazy maneuvers for the sim to have all the parameters necessary for the certification. Single engine takeoffs, spins, all types of non standard maneuvers that he did with a Cessna test pilot. As for rolls, I don't know if he had to do any of those but there are plenty of circumstances that allow for the airplane to be flown out of the normal parameters.
 
Inverted25 said:
Not a FAR thing just what a FAA examiner told me. He said they use that rule for enforcement actions.
Click to expand...

The examiner was wrong. However, he is in good company as the great majority of pilots do not understand 14 CFR 91.303 and 14 CFR 91.307 and get the two regulations confused.
 
Little late to the party...

A little shallow on the initial pitch up, finishing a little nose low. But overall nice job. 8/10.
 
mshunter said:
You're right, no specific reg says "though shalt not roll a Citation."

But there are plenty of regs that can be thrown at this one. I have been to an NTSB hearing where a friends certificate was emergency revoked for climbing in an Extra300 at a 35-45 deg angle, because it was "carless and reckless" and "aerobatic."
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm... I wonder who that was.... Haha! Holding it 5 feet off the deck and pulling vertical with the smoke on may seem like a good idea at an airshow... The only problem was, he wasn't part of the air show!
 
Sure that maneuver can end with no extra forces on the airframe, but not all pilots are created equal.

Wings clap for a reason and some times that reason is because of what happened in the past.

Your own plane, your own time...go nuts.
Commercial pilots supporting this, especially with pax in the back is lame.
 
Douglas said:
Sure that maneuver can end with no extra forces on the airframe, but not all pilots are created equal.

Wings clap for a reason and some times that reason is because of what happened in the past.

Your own plane, your own time...go nuts.
Commercial pilots supporting this, especially with pax in the back is lame.
Click to expand...

"Collapse"???
 
Italianaviator said:
You can't just look at a 10 second clip and expect to know everything about the event. Our Citation Ultra was used as a test bed for the Citation Ultra sim in Orlando. The pilot told me they had to do all sorts of crazy maneuvers for the sim to have all the parameters necessary for the certification. Single engine takeoffs, spins, all types of non standard maneuvers that he did with a Cessna test pilot. As for rolls, I don't know if he had to do any of those but there are plenty of circumstances that allow for the airplane to be flown out of the normal parameters.
Click to expand...

Spins in an Ultra? Single engine takeoffs? Sure they did... I think your friend was pulling your chain.
 
Douglas said:
Sure that maneuver can end with no extra forces on the airframe, but not all pilots are created equal.

Wings clap for a reason and some times that reason is because of what happened in the past.

Your own plane, your own time...go nuts.
Commercial pilots supporting this, especially with pax in the back is lame.
Click to expand...

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but my commercial ticket doesn't give me license (ba-da-boom) to play sky police with a 10-second clip of a barrel roll posted on the internet, pax in the back or not. There is simply not enough information present in the video clip to make a judgment, and the FAA already does a fine job of needlessly chasing after pilots' certificates.

Maybe you'd feel different about FAA enforcement if you worked at an air carrier and saw that it's common that we, the pilot, get the brunt of the punishment for what the company can "force" us to do. (An aside here: for example, my certificate would be on the line if the company falsified my duty times or flight times and I didn't catch it. The company can self-report to "avoid punishment").

Much like you, the only flying I can personally control and ensure is done per Ops Specs, FOM, CFM, and FARs is the flying that I am involved with.
 
I don't really police, I just judge.
Some are supporting, some shake their heads.

But the rest of your post seemed to transition to another topic.
 
Sure I transitioned; I'm merely stating that judging "commercial pilots" for not having the same opinion about this video is due to your background. Not an attack, for sure, you just haven't seen "the real world" when it comes to FAA and enforcement of stuff (like any potential violation in the video).
 
It is my background that is making me shake my head? Then what is making the jet pilots shake their heads?

You keep talking FAA enforcement, something I have not mentioned.
That isn't my conversation, if you want to converse with somebody that wants the FAA to get involved, you will have to find another person.

I've been flying 135 for nearly three years, working for a carrier probably in the same time frame as you. I wouldn't say I've been sheltered from the FAA being in the 135 world opposed to 121. But that is a whole different conversation.
And yes I work for a "self" reporting company.

The whole of my post was just me shaking my head.
 
Douglas said:
Commercial pilots supporting this, especially with pax in the back is lame.
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Alright I see now...you were offended by my post. It all makes sense.

Don't be offended, I personally think it is lame that people who share a fleet of airplanes (commercial pilots) think wringing a jet out (or taking it to a level where it could be very quickly), is a-okay (plus the pax factor).

I have mainly selfish reasoning really, again, "your plane, your time...go nuts". But don't get on the ground and chuck the "keys" to me so the wings can clap while I'm just sitting straight and level.
(Says the man flying >30,000 hr freighters)
 
A couple of thoughts.
1. Just because an airplane is very similar to an aerobatic airplane does not mean they are the same. Unless you were involved in the certification or are familiar with the certification you have no idea what the differences are. American Champion Scout looks identical to the Super Decathlon... but they are not the same. Reinforcements in different areas, different certification requirements. Do aerobatics in the Scout and you could be in a world of hurt.
2. Yes, there are many aerobatic maneuvers that do not stress the airplane. An aileron roll done right will not put that much stress on the airplane. The problem is the botched maneuver. An aileron roll gone bad can over stress the airplane if it is not certified for aerobatics. How many of these pilots post videos of their botched maneuvers?
3. Yes, some pilots do air shows in airplanes not certified for aerobatics and they take a calculated risk. Sometimes they push a little too far and the airplanes are not certified to take the loads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbhQS6IljU
4. Too often pilots see these air shows or videos such as the one posted and think "Hey, I can do that." Too often these attempts turn out poorly. Way too often they take someone else with them.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/business_aviation/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=2f16318d-d960-4e49-bc9f-86f1805f2c7f&plckPostId=Blog%3A2f16318d-d960-4e49-bc9f-86f1805f2c7fPost%3A862c7bac-8b7e-417d-beae-1bbdb93b4ba0&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
5. If the attempt turns out poorly but the pilot survives, do they ground the airplane and have a mechanic inspect it for possible over loading? Do they put a placard on the airplane for all future pax to see that the airplane was involved in aerobatics? If not and I hop in the airplane with my kids it may come apart at 2 Gs.
 
cencal83406 said:
Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but my commercial ticket doesn't give me license (ba-da-boom) to play sky police with a 10-second clip of a barrel roll posted on the internet, pax in the back or not. There is simply not enough information present in the video clip to make a judgment, and the FAA already does a fine job of needlessly chasing after pilots' certificates.

Maybe you'd feel different about FAA enforcement if you worked at an air carrier and saw that it's common that we, the pilot, get the brunt of the punishment for what the company can "force" us to do. (An aside here: for example, my certificate would be on the line if the company falsified my duty times or flight times and I didn't catch it. The company can self-report to "avoid punishment").

Much like you, the only flying I can personally control and ensure is done per Ops Specs, FOM, CFM, and FARs is the flying that I am involved with.
Click to expand...

It'd be interesting to know if there are any actual sky cops (Aviation Safety Inspectors-Operations) amongst us.
 
Blackhawk said:
A couple of thoughts.
1. Just because an airplane is very similar to an aerobatic airplane does not mean they are the same. Unless you were involved in the certification or are familiar with the certification you have no idea what the differences are. American Champion Scout looks identical to the Super Decathlon... but they are not the same. Reinforcements in different areas, different certification requirements. Do aerobatics in the Scout and you could be in a world of hurt.
2. Yes, there are many aerobatic maneuvers that do not stress the airplane. An aileron roll done right will not put that much stress on the airplane. The problem is the botched maneuver. An aileron roll gone bad can over stress the airplane if it is not certified for aerobatics. How many of these pilots post videos of their botched maneuvers?
3. Yes, some pilots do air shows in airplanes not certified for aerobatics and they take a calculated risk. Sometimes they push a little too far and the airplanes are not certified to take the loads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbhQS6IljU
4. Too often pilots see these air shows or videos such as the one posted and think "Hey, I can do that." Too often these attempts turn out poorly. Way too often they take someone else with them.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/business_aviation/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=2f16318d-d960-4e49-bc9f-86f1805f2c7f&plckPostId=Blog%3A2f16318d-d960-4e49-bc9f-86f1805f2c7fPost%3A862c7bac-8b7e-417d-beae-1bbdb93b4ba0&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
5. If the attempt turns out poorly but the pilot survives, do they ground the airplane and have a mechanic inspect it for possible over loading? Do they put a placard on the airplane for all future pax to see that the airplane was involved in aerobatics? If not and I hop in the airplane with my kids it may come apart at 2 Gs.
Click to expand...

This stuff isn't magic though, its not like you HAVE to get experienced dual from an instructor to be able to roll an airplane, just you have to know if you screw it up, there's a reasonable chance that you, or the next person who flies the airplane will die. Some people are fine with that, and if its your airplane, out over the wilderness, have at it. That said, I know of a couple of airplanes that I will not fly because I know what was done to them, and know who did it. Honestly, its not magic, someone had to figure out how to roll an airplane originally, and many airplanes are probably stressed far worse by flying them through hellacious turbulence at high speed, or smashing on 50 landings a day. That said, under most circumstances, I doubt this could be legal. In the end, it doesn't really matter, its not like you'd know if you were in that particular Citation as opposed to any other Citation, honestly, I'd rather someone roll a citation that's getting maintenance done at regular intervals (so that someone would notice the goofy wrinkles in the skin) rather than their own private airplane that they fly 30hrs a year if they're going to be doing it over a schoolyard filled with proverbial children.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter, and it doesn't really affect anyone here other than that its a cool video. Mind your own business when it comes to certificate action against other people is what I think. Of course, you might think otherwise...
 
ppragman said:
This stuff isn't magic though, its not like you HAVE to get experienced dual from an instructor to be able to roll an airplane, just you have to know if you screw it up, there's a reasonable chance that you, or the next person who flies the airplane will die..
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good reason to get some training to me...

As simple as an aileron roll is, there's A LOT that can go wrong really fast if a few basic steps aren't taken. I thought I knew how to roll an airplane til the first time I tried to slow roll a Stearman. Altitude is always your friend.

That's a good point you brought up about the turbulence. I've had this "roll" discussion a number of times. It always amazes me that the ones who afraid of the airplane coming undone when it's ther turn to fly never seem to think of why throttling back and maintaining Va or lower in turbulence is important.
 
ppragman said:
This stuff isn't magic though, its not like you HAVE to get experienced dual from an instructor to be able to roll an airplane, just you have to know if you screw it up, there's a reasonable chance that you, or the next person who flies the airplane will die. Some people are fine with that, and if its your airplane, out over the wilderness, have at it. That said, I know of a couple of airplanes that I will not fly because I know what was done to them, and know who did it. Honestly, its not magic, someone had to figure out how to roll an airplane originally, and many airplanes are probably stressed far worse by flying them through hellacious turbulence at high speed, or smashing on 50 landings a day. That said, under most circumstances, I doubt this could be legal. In the end, it doesn't really matter, its not like you'd know if you were in that particular Citation as opposed to any other Citation, honestly, I'd rather someone roll a citation that's getting maintenance done at regular intervals (so that someone would notice the goofy wrinkles in the skin) rather than their own private airplane that they fly 30hrs a year if they're going to be doing it over a schoolyard filled with proverbial children.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter, and it doesn't really affect anyone here other than that its a cool video. Mind your own business when it comes to certificate action against other people is what I think. Of course, you might think otherwise...
Click to expand...
Hmm. I don't think I wrote anything at all about certification action. Can you show me where I did? Or do you write without reading?
 
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