Cirrus Vision SF50

[Stratopilot]

I have a Vision.

Not gonna happen.

I just recently wrote a masters paper on the SF 50. I'll post it if anybody cares. What makes the Vision different than the epic failure recently exhibited by Eclipse, is that unlike Eclipse, Cirrus has two legs to stand on and a pot to piss in. Most of thier initial orders for the vision have come from existing customers. Additionally, Cirrus already has a prior record with the certification branch of the FAA as well as the relationships in place.

Where as eclipse had to dig up their customers from scratch, in addition to being leveraged to the hilt, exhibiting a rather basic misunderstanding of the relationship between production costs and aircraft manufacturing AND dealing with certification issues. Eventually, the certification costs got so high that they had to keep jacking up the price from an unrealistic 800K to a more mainstream 1.5 mil, which at that point made it comparable to that of a multitude of other aircraft with established track records that were already on the market, and thus they lost not only their creditors but also their competitive edge.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

That's a hellacious FUPA.

Don't know? Google it.

 

[tilley_205]

I just recently wrote a masters paper on the SF 50. I'll post it if anybody cares. What makes the Vision different than the epic failure recently exhibited by Eclipse, is that unlike Eclipse, Cirrus has two legs to stand on and a pot to piss in. Most of thier initial orders for the vision have come from existing customers. Additionally, Cirrus already has a prior record with the certification branch of the FAA as well as the relationships in place.

Where as eclipse had to dig up their customers from scratch, in addition to being leveraged to the hilt, exhibiting a rather basic misunderstanding of the relationship between production costs and aircraft manufacturing AND dealing with certification issues. Eventually, the certification costs got so high that they had to keep jacking up the price from an unrealistic 800K to a more mainstream 1.5 mil, which at that point made it comparable to that of a multitude of other aircraft with established track records that were already on the market, and thus they lost not only their creditors but also their competitive edge.

Andy: I wouldnt mind reading it, tilley_205@yahoo.com

 

[Murdoughnut]

A forked tail doctor/lawyer killer for the 21st century ... I like it.

 

[Murdoughnut]

That's a hellacious FUPA.

Don't know? Google it.

A couple years ago I tried to create and market the term "momgina", but lost to the "FUPA" crowd. Urbandictionary can kiss my ...

 

[ppragman]

I just recently wrote a masters paper on the SF 50. I'll post it if anybody cares. What makes the Vision different than the epic failure recently exhibited by Eclipse, is that unlike Eclipse, Cirrus has two legs to stand on and a pot to piss in. Most of thier initial orders for the vision have come from existing customers. Additionally, Cirrus already has a prior record with the certification branch of the FAA as well as the relationships in place.

Where as eclipse had to dig up their customers from scratch, in addition to being leveraged to the hilt, exhibiting a rather basic misunderstanding of the relationship between production costs and aircraft manufacturing AND dealing with certification issues. Eventually, the certification costs got so high that they had to keep jacking up the price from an unrealistic 800K to a more mainstream 1.5 mil, which at that point made it comparable to that of a multitude of other aircraft with established track records that were already on the market, and thus they lost not only their creditors but also their competitive edge.

I'd be interested in the paper.

ppragman@hotmail.com

 

[Mark815]

A forked tail doctor/lawyer killer for the 21st century ... I like it.

Beat me to it! I was gonna say...

The NEW doctor killer?

 

[vikingair]

Does the location and angle of the engine inlet seem like at higher AOA's it would be blocked by the fuselage? Wouldn't that increase the chances of a compressor stall? I'm just curious, my turbine experience is about the same as the amount of times Ive been invited to the Playboy mansion..none.

 

[mooneyguy]

Why two stall strips per wing? I mean isn't a little buffet over the flaps enough or is the second one for ailerons. If so, please tell me the ailerons aren't that big that they come in that far,

As far as drag, if it's composite it takes a TON of drag off the airplane with it being so much closer to laminar flow. Take the SR20 and Piper Arrow. The 20's got a few extra horsepower but a huge advantage in speed, climb, t/o and landing performance. The SR20's we had even beat the PA44's.

This is just a bit of a guess on my part but the prop cirrus uses the discontinuous leading edge to reduce the chance of spin with out board portion of the wing built at a lower angle of incidence, and an increased wing area. This allows the inboard to stall first and allows the pilot to maintain roll control of the aircraft. The spin recovery for a cirrus is, pull the shute. The Jet does not use the discontinuous leading edge so one could assume the two stall strips mounted on each inboard wing has the same purpose, help prevent spins by causing the inboard to stall first.

 

[MikeOH58]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I just found it...

Is there any market for this jet outside of personal owners? 300 knots, 25k ceiling, I don't see how any charter company would ever use this over any King Air, Piaggio, TBM or even a Pilatapus.

 

[cmill]

yesssss, i just cant wait for all the current cirrus "pilots" to upgrade into this.

 

[jhugz]

Is there any market for this jet outside of personal owners? 300 knots, 25k ceiling, I don't see how any charter company would ever use this over any King Air, Piaggio, TBM or even a Pilatapus.

Chatting w/ the cirrus rep the answer seems to be no. The biggest customer will be returning Cirrus customers and the second customer will be companies like OpenAir (ex-SATsAir - kind of) doing Cirrus charters now. Maybe some fractional Cirrus stuff from AirShares Elite.

 

[wjmiller3]

Chatting w/ the cirrus rep the answer seems to be no. The biggest customer will be returning Cirrus customers and the second customer will be companies like OpenAir (ex-SATsAir - kind of) doing Cirrus charters now. Maybe some fractional Cirrus stuff from AirShares Elite.

Planesmart has a deposit in on one for fractional use also.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I just found it...

Is there any market for this jet outside of personal owners? 300 knots, 25k ceiling, I don't see how any charter company would ever use this over any King Air, Piaggio, TBM or even a Pilatapus.

I guess it could compete with a PA-46 or TBM. Its going to come down to owners with the money to burn on a plane that "looks cool"

 

[jynxyjoe]

I guess it could compete with a PA-46 or TBM. Its going to come down to owners with the money to burn on a plane that "looks cool"

Eh, with the total loss of wealth in this country than I've read about (assuming the literature is correct), there aren't going to be enough people with "money to burn". Who knows though. I just hope they don't get a bunch of the morons from eclipse and the plane doesn't fishtail like the beech does. Still looks like a pipe dream to me though.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Eh, with the total loss of wealth in this country than I've read about (assuming the literature is correct), there aren't going to be enough people with "money to burn". Who knows though. I just hope they don't get a bunch of the morons from eclipse and the plane doesn't fishtail like the beech does. Still looks like a pipe dream to me though.

I think you can lump all of the VLJ's into the pipe dream category, other than maybe the Citation Mustang. The D-Jet, Piper Jet, Cirrus Jet and even the Eclipse. Had the management not been so stupid over at Eclipse, they could have been a good jet from the start. Hopefully the new owners can get it figured out, and turn it into a quality product.

 

[jhugz]

I think you can lump all of the VLJ's into the pipe dream category, other than maybe the Citation Mustang. The D-Jet, Piper Jet, Cirrus Jet and even the Eclipse. Had the management not been so stupid over at Eclipse, they could have been a good jet from the start. Hopefully the new owners can get it figured out, and turn it into a quality product.

I think you will be surprised. If Eclipse and Dayjet weren't so co-dependent on each other I think the eclipse would be doing much better right now. Maybe, maybe not...only time will tell.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I think you will be surprised. If Eclipse and Dayjet weren't so co-dependent on each other I think the eclipse would be doing much better right now. Maybe, maybe not...only time will tell.

I think its more to do with them deciding to try to build their own avionics package. Eclipse would have been much better off by dropping in a G1000 into the thing, or even an Avidyne. They spent too much money trying to develop an avionics package that still isn't 100% up to speed.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I think its more to do with them deciding to try to build their own avionics package. Eclipse would have been much better off by dropping in a G1000 into the thing, or even an Avidyne. They spent too much money trying to develop an avionics package that still isn't 100% up to speed.

Eclipse was literally cracking open the Avidyne sets and reversing engineering them. To say they "spent money trying to develop" anything gives them a ton more credit than they deserve.

If at any point, the Eclipse engineering dept. had been anywhere as motivated as the sales department they'd have done just fine with sales.

I think you will be surprised. If Eclipse and Dayjet weren't so co-dependent on each other I think the eclipse would be doing much better right now.

That's wrong. Eclipse destroyed Dayjet (and themselves) by building and selling planes that could only fly IFR only every other Tuesday. There's a 2 page letter Dayjet released to the media describing the near sabotage Eclipse created for their business. So, in conclusion, "If Eclipse and Dayjet weren't so co-dependent on each other I think that Dayjet would be doing much better right now."

 

[jynxyjoe]

I think you can lump all of the VLJ's into the pipe dream category, other than maybe the Citation Mustang. The D-Jet, Piper Jet, Cirrus Jet and even the Eclipse. Had the management not been so stupid over at Eclipse, they could have been a good jet from the start. Hopefully the new owners can get it figured out, and turn it into a quality product.

Citation, last I saw, wasn't a VLJ. I had thought they'd giving up on certifying it under the vlj part 23 exemption. But Cessna does most of their stuff in house, I wasn't terribly involved in their stuff unless it was built by Ham Stand. Old Billy Martin was a nut about in house EMI.